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Edgie
10th May 2008, 04:32
AKA: This mod will surely die.

I hope this doesn't come off as trolling, as it isn't meant to be. But, honest to God, this mod has the worst community for new players I've ever had the displeasure of walking into.

I try to join the 'beginning' server. We have pigsticking and pipebombs on. There's no friendly fire. Sounds like a good place to start, right? Nope. Three people 'run' the server, while the other 6-7 of us die mostly to a barrage of physics attacks while these expert players giggle.

I try another server. I'm laughed at and spit upon for using a newb weapon, such as the shotgun. Very funny, eh?

Worst of all, the mod makes it even tougher for newbies to get into the game! While I'm dead, what options do I have? I can watch the absolutely useless scan-line covered view from a player, or the absolutely useless scan-line covered view of a security camera. I can't see what Mr. Expert hidden does. Those little tricks he's doing that us newbies have no idea how to do? The way he doesn't get shot while I predictably get turned into swiss cheese is something outside my reach.

And damnit, I can't even watch the IRIS in an attempt to learn how to see the hidden because of all the stupid scanlines. Instead, I get a barrel thrown at my head from 50 feet above me. Great.

Without supportive players, any sort of a real and true newbie/beginner server, I can't see this mod garnering new players. Ever. Maybe this is best for your l33t expert player, and maybe that's what you're shooting for, but getting into this game as a newbie is damn near impossible.

I should also note that I'm saying newbie as I'm referring to myself -- someone who's been playing FPS games since Wolf3D and Doom, with online internet play starting at Quake. I'm no stranger to these kind of games, but this mod is frustrated, even for me. I can't begin to imagine someone who hasn't been playing these sorts of games getting into it.

Genre
10th May 2008, 05:35
You have to keep in mind that the mentioned "Expert" players were newbies at one point too, having just as much difficulty seeing the hidden, pouncing around, slashing, and shooting as you. The game is meant to have a steep learning curve. The scan-lines actually make the hidden easier to see, I always found as a noob that the cameras gave me an idea of what to look for in game. The hidden cannot be spectated for ghosting issues, among other reasons I'm sure.

It's unfortunate you met the "experts" on the beginner's server, but don't let that completely discourage you. Hell, I was always motivated even more to practice and become just as good, or even slightly comparable.

Playing as hidden is hard at first. The controls feel wacky, and never thoroughly explained. First rule as hidden: always pretend you're 100% visible. Be sneaky, be clever, be distracting, be loud while moving quickly.

When I play with the "noobs", I'm as supportive as I can be, explaining the controls, and giving tips.

The community does care about the noobs, we all want a little fresh meat ;)
but if you're going to give up because of the learning curve, and some players that are better than you, maybe you shouldn't be playing this mod. Go play something more straightforward like CSS.

It doesn't matter if people bitch about the shotgun or pigsticker. Everyone does, it's like bitching about hitbox lag and low stamina. Pigstick the entire IRIS team if you want, eventually you'll get bored of that and start trying new things. Throw a barrel here, pipebomb a camper there. It's just the advancements in the game. Yeah people bitch, but they'll get over it.

Isolation
10th May 2008, 06:43
I'd probably have to agree completely with the topic poster. I was never an "expert" or "elite" by the current definitions, but I stuck through Beta 2 when pigsticking was the only way to fly, and I was rather successful at the good ol' 10-20 second PS rush/IRIS Spawn Bug Rape.

However, this new era of phys kills and elitism has more or less sucked the fun out for me. The newbie players were the only players I could have fun with, but then someone comes in and starts phys killing left and right. I'm one of those select few who does not find phys kills "scary" I guess. I always felt that the 3 slash system elicited the most adrenaline for me, since it actually made me feel hunted.

Phys kills used to be a fun coup de grace, but has somehow or another become the only "accepted" method of killing among some players (not naming names, just facts as I had seen them.) All in all, it feels as though the game has become even less newbie friendly than the earlier versions. Don't know exactly why it feels that way (given my particular 'pedigree' of learning the game under Yum Yum Kittyloaf), but it is how it is.

The only way I can see changing that with the current system/beta would be to start ones own server and ID ban anyone whose stats are too good :rolleyes:

Zabiela
10th May 2008, 07:09
The only way I can see changing that with the current system/beta would be to start ones own server and ID ban anyone whose stats are too good :rolleyes:

That's actually not that far-fetched. I think it would be great to run a server where anyone who is good is banned. I just got hired at a nice job today, and if I can afford it, I might just make a newbie server.

Isolation
10th May 2008, 07:23
That's actually not that far-fetched. I think it would be great to run a server where anyone who is good is banned. I just got hired at a nice job today, and if I can afford it, I might just make a newbie server.

I did not want to go into any depth, but using the stats system to determine the noobs from those with experience was the idea I had in mind. Once a player has reached XYZ score, use of said server is disabled. I'm not sure how realistic it would be, but at least it'd a proper training ground (for the most part).

Paegus
10th May 2008, 08:33
i've been quietly working on a script that tracks every player who joins and tallies their overall capability (not just kills/death) and then would ideally react accordingly.

was dithering on handicap, kicking or even a combination of the 2 because straight banning is absolute and there are some good players out there who would probably join and play down if nothing else is going on. the server would still know they're actually good though.

the main problems are that i don't want to spend more money on a secondary server and i need decent ideas for how to employ handicaps on players whose scores get too good in relation to the other active server members.

-SM-SUCKER
10th May 2008, 11:18
...
You obviously ran into the wrong kind of people. Most of those 'elite' players I know will give advices to new players. We tell them to play the tutorial at least once, explain how to pounce and cling and some basic tactics if neccesary.
So if you play on european servers you should try Clandestine Cake. Some admin will probably be there.

Daedalus
10th May 2008, 12:27
The problem with small game communities that don't get a steady income of users is that people get quite skilled, and a new player won't find people who are at the same skill level as they are. B5 will remedy this a bit, since there will be an influx of new people.

jeebo
10th May 2008, 12:32
I have to agree with the original poster as well, though I'd also echo that you should keep playing. I've run into some real turds, whose only apparent aim is to glorify themselves at the expense of everyone else's fun (until someone better joins, and then they brownnose to avoid getting killed themselves ;-D). However, I've definitely run into more cool players who ARE willing to share and explain so you don't get owned every round.

The whiners who call pigsticking and shotgun "noob tools" just hate that those are the weapons still outstanding that can take their l33t nuts down - it's an ego thing - just ignore it. They're part of the game, though I don't use either. Like Genre said, play the way that works for you until you learn other things.

I love this mod, and I evangelize all I can for it, so I think better tutorials are in line, which should include some rules I've learned (agree or disagree if you want ;-D):

IRIS:
1) Look behind you sometimes
2) Look up sometimes
3) Hold still occasionally - the Hidden is easier to see if you aren't moving and especially if he is
4) Be quiet sometimes - I like to play with my speakers up loud - that way I can sometimes hear him walking around (pounces are harder to hear)

Hidden:
1) Learn to use pounce (default middle button, mine's set on the SHIFT key) - upwards at angles lets you move around the map at ridiculous speeds, which is probably what's making it hard for you as IRIS to follow
2) Throw things - even if you aren't good at the physics kills, it's a great distraction
3) Crouch most of the time (including when you pounce) - you're a smaller, harder-to-see/hit target
4) NEVER charge straight at a player who is facing you - they probably see you and you'll know for sure when you're lying lifeless and full of lead
5) Use Aura-View (default "C" key) - you can see through most single walls, and can therefore see health and location of nearby IRIS

Global:
1) Get a mic
2) Ask questions
3) Learn to mute annoying loudmouths (ESC > Player List > Mute In-Game Voice
4) Try to find servers with lower pings (under 200 for sure, though I usually stick to under 100, for myself and other players, since it doesn't add lag to the overall game)
5) Try to find servers with cool players who will tame their playing down for less-skilled players and who will share how to play

Hope that helps and encourages you to keep playing.

Amistade
10th May 2008, 15:19
"4) Be quiet sometimes - I like to play with my speakers up loud - that way I can sometimes hear him walking around (pounces are harder to hear)"

I have been playing CS and CSS for like 5-6 years, and i was always been using headphones. The point is, that u CAN hear every single hidden movement :) well, maybe im not the most skilled The hidden source player, but when i will get more skilled in this game, i will be able to kill it with my eyes closed. Well, tbh, when sun shines to my eyes, and i cant see a shit, and that's were my headphones comes to help, because u can hear a lot: how hidden is moving,jumping,speaking, "knifing" you, throwing grenades.


back to the point, this games offer unlimited chance to get skilled every minute you play this game, and theres a lot of peoples that are playing this game, so this game/mod is not going to die. If ur getting "owned" all the time, maybe u should just try harder to play this game/mod, to learn tricks, to try all the weapons, because, if u turn on this game/mod, and u hope to instanly be the "expert" player..... i hope u realise, that this is IMposible. U need to learn, learn and learn. its same with every game.

For "Newbies",
THERE IS TUTORIALS!!! is it so hard to take tutorials? they take 8-10 minutes max to complete each of them, and when u comeplete it, u get like 34 times more skilled! When i started playing this game/mod, first of all i took tutorials. After it, i was not a "noob", and well actualy, i did it pretty good, killed hidden few times and as the hidden, i killed not so much, but still, i was not a noob.
The point is, that i think most of us, started playing cs with bots, than cs online, than every1 completed hl2, than css with bots, than css online, and if u played all these Valve "creations", theres no ^%$&ing chance, that u cant play this game, and u getting "owned", because, its very similar to every single FPS.This game/mod "bots" are tutorials, if u complete tutorials, than its same as u played with bots for 5 days. If u havent played any FPS, than u SHOULD NOT start this game at the beggining. Go play some hl2.

And at the end, God made us diferent, for example, i'm totaly Noob in RTS's, i just cant get the point of those games, but RPG's and FPS's, thats were im "god" :)
Maybe this game/mod, or even whole FPS is not for you.

Sorry for my bad english. Sorry if this post should not be here, im just a noob.
Dont be angry on me, just ban me.

ProgrammedToConsume
10th May 2008, 18:18
Yeah, it's real fun to be a newb playing with überleets. When I started a player named Phreaq constantly owned me. Eventually, his tactic taught me to predict where the hidden will pounce and where IRIS will look next.

My suggestion, is try to figure out where the bastard is going to be when he's low on stamina and try to follow his pounces. When you're Hidden, trying binding pounce to mouse2, it's very comfortable and you feel like you have more control. Learning to attack while flying by helps quite a bit.


the main problems are that i don't want to spend more money on a secondary server and i need decent ideas for how to employ handicaps on players whose scores get too good in relation to the other active server members.

SilverSquirrel has a plug-in that beacons a player after they have a certain score(Can be set, he sets it to 20), forces them to spectate after they reach another milestone(he sets this to 30 I believe), and reloads scores after people disconnect so they can't get around it until map change.

Want me to ask him to share the love?

Zabiela
10th May 2008, 19:28
SilverSquirrel has a plug-in that beacons a player after they have a certain score(Can be set, he sets it to 20), forces them to spectate after they reach another milestone(he sets this to 30 I believe), and reloads scores after people disconnect so they can't get around it until map change.

Want me to ask him to share the love?

I don't like that plugin, because if its a newb vs 2 newbs, one will eventually get to 20, and it will be wierd. Score is too related to the circumstances of the server and not just a testimony of skill.

Digit*
10th May 2008, 20:27
Elitists will always be a part of the game, or sometimes they are simply frag whores hell bend on your total annihilation.

I think it was just your bad luck to encounter frag whores who didnt care much about you and just wanted to get as many kills as possible.

Try out the Europian server Clandestine Cake, i play there all the time thanks to wonderful server management and friendly admins and i know a thing or two about this mod, and will be most willing to help you or answer your questions while toning myself down a bit to increase your survival odds. (Or if you're up for the challenge you can ask me to go full throttle and i'll do my best to keep you busy. :))

ProgrammedToConsume
10th May 2008, 20:50
I don't like that plugin, because if its a newb vs 2 newbs, one will eventually get to 20, and it will be wierd. Score is too related to the circumstances of the server and not just a testimony of skill.

I never did either, but I figured he might like it. I suppose server stats solve this to an extent.

Paegus
10th May 2008, 23:32
no thanks i'd rather make my own hash of it without the annoying beacons and the like.

Isolation
11th May 2008, 00:42
no thanks i'd rather make my own hash of it without the annoying beacons and the like.

Off hand, I'd think that decreased health/damage/accuracy/walk speed/stamina would work better than BS beacons or blinding if you're looking at making handicaps for both IRIS and 617.

Scratch that and reverse it. Give noobs BOOSTS in those areas that dwindle down with the more experience they gain.

I can imagine accepting such terms if I was in a newbie server trying to teach the fresh meat how to play and weening them into the standard settings.

ItC'Peach
11th May 2008, 05:47
I like isolations idea here. If played a lot and became skilled at a game, i would not want to have my dedication penalised. But giving noob players a boost would settle the playing field a little more, giving the skilled player cause to play a little more tactically and the noobs a much needed edge to keep from getting destroyed right away. Its just my opinion, but this way seems a little more fair and balanced, maybe even more fun and intense.

Zabiela
11th May 2008, 07:15
I was thinking more along the lines of as soon as you have a firm grip on how to play the game/hidden, then you're banned.

Digit*
11th May 2008, 08:12
I was thinking more along the lines of as soon as you have a firm grip on how to play the game/hidden, then you're banned.

So basically you want a newbie only server, but as soon as a newbie finally becomes good at the game and his time and effort spent finally pays off...you want him banned?

Isn't that like...a bit harsh?

Amistade
11th May 2008, 08:26
Well, ban is best way to prevent "not noob anymore" and skilled players entering that server, i think its great idea to make 1-2 servers for noobs, that have no idea how to play the game.

But as i said, tutorials are wery useful, and if "noob" goes straight to the game, without completing tutorials, than he will need more time to get more skilled.

Zabiela
11th May 2008, 09:19
So basically you want a newbie only server, but as soon as a newbie finally becomes good at the game and his time and effort spent finally pays off...you want him banned?

Isn't that like...a bit harsh?

Yeah it is, but there are many other servers out there which the now-aquainted-with-the-game players would go play in. Besides I would be adding a server to the list.
It would be a safe haven for new players to become familiar with the game.

Paegus
11th May 2008, 10:45
some interesting ideas there...

as for banning and the like i'm not an outright fan. what i was hoping to accomplish is to track users by their steamids (sorry to people who share but id&name leaves the door open) and then rate the players on a sliding scale. players at the bottom get boosts, players in the middle get sod all and players at the top get nerfed. if a player is just too damn good in relation to the rest of the server then they get ejected. That way if for some reason the whole server if packed with extremely capable players the scale slides in that direction. if a newbie joins they get massive boosts because the curve is distorted by the high end players. as more new players join the scale slides down and at some point the high level players will start getting kicked... ideally after a warning. if they try to reconnect they'll just get kicked again akin to your basic slot reservation.

Master of Puppets
11th May 2008, 12:20
I dont think that boosting new players is such a good idea. They can get too comfortable and once they get better than the others on the server they will be kicked in the face by the reality that they arent so good as they thought they are. They will join some normal server and get owned and they will think: "omg i spent so much time by getting better on that server and i still suck hard omg. Fuck this im going home..." I think it would be better to leave new players at default and nerf the ones above them.

Paegus
11th May 2008, 13:52
any boosting will be fairly obvious and accompanied by screen text. health and ammo mostly is all i can see being of any real use. things like movement speed and stamina i'd only consider restricting on the upper end since altering them at the lower end does, as you say, subtly alter the overall game mechanics in ways that aren't entirely obvious to inexperienced players which is something i want to avoid.

There's also weapon restrictions that can be used. No FN303 for instance and/or removing the primaries all together at the upper end.

Demented
12th May 2008, 00:06
Changing how often good players get to be the hidden (or for multiple roudns) might be the least-intrusive way, though it also means good players would be killing hiddens fairly frequently, and not getting hidden when they should have.

Possibly something like lowered damage from better players versus weaker players could apply as well, so long as it's subtle.

Isolation
12th May 2008, 01:05
any boosting will be fairly obvious and accompanied by screen text. health and ammo mostly is all i can see being of any real use. things like movement speed and stamina i'd only consider restricting on the upper end since altering them at the lower end does, as you say, subtly alter the overall game mechanics in ways that aren't entirely obvious to inexperienced players which is something i want to avoid.

That'd be why you need a "shades of gray" scale, that tracks skill between rounds. If you could do that, the boosts/deductions would (or should...) become mostly transparent. Think of it in terms of doing an actual workout, the stronger you become, you gradually increase resistance. The player's skill would, in theory, be increasing as he/she's weened from the increased stats.

darktimes
12th May 2008, 12:04
ok.

i think we all, need to rethink the concept of this game.

now its pretty much: "go raped by phiskills while you learn to see him"

natural selection: has anyone played fade? hes visible, but 3 times faster as the hidden. NATURAL SELECTIONs fade is a great concept and we should use it as inspiration. i am myself a average fade, and when i come to hidden, the expirements helped alot.

i think we need the concept of "easy to learn, hard to master"
so that you can become a average player easy, but going pro is hard.

here are my suggestions to accomplish this
theyre not well thinked, and maybe not that good, but WE nEED TO CHANGE SOMETHING

1. additional movment for new players, something easy, like a sprint who set the hidden model automatical in crouch. and it should be fast as a pounce (speed in air)

2. physics: they should be a finisher, a starter of a fight, or a camp breaker, not a instantwin method.

3. toggle crouch?

4. picstick. i think it should be only performed when youre in the back of the victim, and the charge is laoder and need only 2 seconds, take some skill to come, and nobody going raped anymore, becouse the iris have a fair chance to defeat it by turning around.


another idea is a USEFULL tutorial, the current is, sorry here, CRAP


2c. Keep moving: All the time you will see fades dying to good players because they decide to blink to a marine, and try to finish him by walking around him or away from him to kill him. Good marines are VERY evasive, and you should NEVER halt a fast motion such as blink with a walk. NO FADE SHOULD EVER WALK. EVER. It is very easy to bunnyhop as a fade, because you don't need to hold crouch to do it. You should always be bunnyhopping, or quick blinking (mentioned above) to get around. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON YOU SHOULD EVER WALK TO A MARINE.
thats a quote from a fade guide.


3. Knowing when to attack: Attacking is a of course a big part of fading, but knowing when to attack can be rather difficult.

3a. Things to pay attention for:

Ammo:
If you think the marine has wasted a copious amount of ammo and you are still high on health, now is the time to attack. The easiest gun is of course the shotgun. You can out eight shots out rather easily. If the marine's aim isn't exceptional, he will probably not have you too low, considering the weapon level. Always count shots, because a reloading marine is an easy one to kill. Pay attention also to a marine the will flee from combat. All marines will flee when they need to reload, allowing the perfect opportunity to attack.

Health:
Usually in competitive play, games don't last long enough for marines to get past level one armor, with an occasional level two armor, depending on the strat, and of course if your team kept the marines on a tight res count. If you keep the marine team down to 2-3 nodes, don't often expect anything higher than level one armor and level two weapons. Have skulks keep you informed on the armor status of marines, so you know how many swipes are needed.

Number of marines:
A lone marine is almost ALWAYS easy to take down, in any situation other than Heavy Armor, and even the occasional HA/Shotgun is easy to kill, due to lack of ammo. If you encounter a marine with a shotgun, which you know is alone, toy with him, but not for too long, run him out of 5-6 shells, forcing him to reload. Blink around a lot, get close making him think he has a chance.
A good tactic is usually to blink straight up and straight down, front infront of, to directly behind the marine, he will shoot off 2-3 shots before you get behind him, and very seldom will he hit you with all three. Combining the three stated items to pay attention for above, you will have the marine dead quickly, and the comm 10 res and 1 marine short.

4. Blink/Swiping:
This is of course the most effective way to get in and out of combat quickly, and still deal damage.

4a. How to:
Knowing how to blink swipe is only the first step. Actually performing this can be rather tricky, depending on your skill at blinking and your aim. Fades are meant for this attribute , so it is without a doubt the best one to practice. The best possible way to blink swipe is to enable fastswitch first, (hud_fastswitch 1 in console), then bind a key such as q to last inventory, (bind "q" "lastinv" in your console/config). Half way through blinking, hit your q button, which will change to the last slot you had selected, (make sure it was swipe), and attack again. You will swipe. Hit q again to change to blink, and get out as fast as possible. Only stay for 2 or more hits if you are ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE YOU ARE UNNOTICED AND/OR HAVE NOT BEEN SHOT YET. I cannot emphasize this enough.

Now for my personal statement:
I have not, and probably never will use last inventory, for the simple fact that it confuses me, and I'm am already set and comfortable with what I use, which is the 1 and 2 buttons with fast switch. But to be honost, 9 out of every 10 good fades and players at this game do infact use last inventory for almost everything.

as you can see, these are really helpfull hints, it cant replace reall gamining expirimence, but it helps

Genre
12th May 2008, 13:58
I just want to make this very clear right now before anything progresses.


This game is not made to reflect Natural Selection, nor will it be changed to do so.

Yes that concept works in that game, however, 617 is not some Kharaa from another world, you're not playing somewhere out in space. You're on Earth, fighting against a genetic experiment.

If you've read the NS guide, but haven't applied some of the strategies you've learned from it in Hidden in a way that works for you, then there's not much the devs or the community can do for you.

This is a hard game to learn, but once you do it's easy. The concept of the game is great, it works very well.

Your first suggestion regarding the sprint, made no sense to me. You want a sprint that automatically crouches a player? A toggle-bind crouch is easy to make, and you have the pounce. Considering pouncing is the best way to move as 617, I don't think it a good idea to replace it with an ultra-sprint. Yes, that will help them frag everyone on the map moving at that speed, but will it give them the foundations needed to pounce? Not really no. You can't hide up on a wall with a sprint.

Physics is getting a damage cap so there won't be any more 1-hit-kills, and many players will widdle you down before killing you anyway (I, for example, have been trying to slash and throw things around more than smacking shit into your face just to kill you for the sake of saying I got a physkill)

As I said before, bind your own toggle-crouch. Google it if you don't know how, it's fairly simple.

Pigstick is out of the count unless you're < 20hp. You get the "Shove" instead. This is definitely a good thing.

The tutorials are already getting a complete overhaul.

Devs and others, feel free to correct me all you want, I don't know all the changes.

poliq
12th May 2008, 15:55
...
1. additional movment for new players, something easy, like a sprint who set the hidden model automatical in crouch. and it should be fast as a pounce (speed in air)
...

Dude! Would you really want that? Just think about it.. :confused:

Digit*
12th May 2008, 20:09
randomstoryhere

I am nominating this for most useless post ever...

Back on track, i also agree that (with a properly made restriction system) new players vs expert players should indeed get boosts, albeit small ones. Like say just enough health to survive 3 slashes/survive x amount of extra bullets.

And maybe it might be a thought to lessen the blurr from the 303 against new players so that they wont suffer from huge disorientation when they first encounter the less lethal wonder weapon. Makes it easier for them to escape/survive. Just a thought.

Master of Puppets
12th May 2008, 20:52
True true Digit. Less lethal (nice name for the weapon spawned form hell btw :) ) is a real (not just) noob killer (-doh!). If the blur would be removed it would make him less lethal for noobs.

Kitty_Loaf
12th May 2008, 23:18
Like any other game, the Hidden takes practice. Once you figure out how to use the controls well, then it's a matter of out thinking the opponent like any other game.

I didn't care about the newbie when I first started because I was entirely confused by things, but I learned quickly (back in beta 2 I think), and when I got better, I still didn't care XD It'll be different now since I haven't played in such a long time, so I'll get back to you guys on how I do *laughs*

darktimes
14th May 2008, 12:04
I just want to make this very clear right now before anything progresses.


This game is not made to reflect Natural Selection, nor will it be changed to do so.
I HAVENT SAY THAT IT SHOULD GO REFLECT NATURAL SELECTION
Yes that concept works in that game, however, 617 is not some Kharaa from another world, you're not playing somewhere out in space. You're on Earth, fighting against a genetic experiment. i havnd said he is, but you cant tell that there arent some similar things.(pouncing,hit and run, and generaly the tactics)

If you've read the NS guide, but haven't applied some of the strategies you've learned from it in Hidden in a way that works for you, then there's not much the devs or the community can do for you. WTF are you talking about?
im not a noob, and i converted this tactics to hidden.

This is a hard game to learn, but once you do it's easy. The concept of the game is great, it works very well. oh really? why have we max 60 players? i have ask a new player, he played for 4 days now, and still find it hard to play as hidden when youre learn something. everything is easy, we need to find a WAY TO make the learning curve lower.

Your first suggestion regarding the sprint, made no sense to me. You want a sprint that automatically crouches a player? A toggle-bind crouch is easy to make, and you have the pounce. Considering pouncing is the best way to move as 617, I don't think it a good idea to replace it with an ultra-sprint. Yes, that will help them frag everyone on the map moving at that speed, but will it give them the foundations needed to pounce? Not really no. You can't hide up on a wall with a sprint. DUDE: IT WAS A SUGGESTION, I KNOW IT SUCKS, BUT WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING FOR THE NEWBS

Physics is getting a damage cap so there won't be any more 1-hit-kills, and many players will widdle you down before killing you anyway (I, for example, have been trying to slash and throw things around more than smacking shit into your face just to kill you for the sake of saying I got a physkill)
ok. i know that, and i agree.

As I said before, bind your own toggle-crouch. Google it if you don't know how, it's fairly simple.
i can bind my toggle crouch, but ca 85&#37; of all players dont even know how to open the console.
Pigstick is out of the count unless you're < 20hp. You get the "Shove" instead. This is definitely a good thing. have i said something others?

The tutorials are already getting a complete overhaul.
great! but a info in the beta 5 changelog thread whould be nice.

Devs and others, feel free to correct me all you want, I don't know all the changes.

i can understand you by NS, but i never said that NS = hidden, in fact, theyre both very different, but i noted that they have some similar things, and a learning concept of NS let new players keep playing,

and before you flame/bitch me to death (<sarcasm) you should post YOURE own ideas to make the learning curve easier for new players,
we need something that let them keep staying, so that they can learn the game, and understand it. a gameplay "hook"

Digit*
14th May 2008, 21:05
and before you flame/bitch me to death (<sarcasm) you should post YOURE own ideas to make the learning curve easier for new players,
we need something that let them keep staying, so that they can learn the game, and understand it. a gameplay "hook"

Warning: Flame Incoming! (j/k)

But i can already see the tremendous flaw in your entire post: "to make the learning curve easier".

Now you see...the funny thing is...that will =>!NEVER!<= happen. Hidden:Source stands out from other mods partially thanks to it's steep learning curve, and it will continue to be steep until Ging decides to make the learning curve a downhill easy to pick up kinda thing, or until God makes a public formal appearance stating that Hell has frozen over.

Zabiela
15th May 2008, 03:31
4. picstick. i think it should be only performed when youre in the back of the victim

TF2 has shown us this works GREAT! /sarcasm

/facestab

MrBone
15th May 2008, 09:37
And the only people I'd bother using the PS on are the campers anyway, they very often have their back to the wall.

darktimes
16th May 2008, 17:37
Warning: Flame Incoming! (j/k)

But i can already see the tremendous flaw in your entire post: "to make the learning curve easier".

Now you see...the funny thing is...that will =>!NEVER!<= happen.
when this is true, the mod will DIE! sorry that i say that here, but face IT!
WE need more players! whit time, (ca 2-3 jears ) the servers WILL BE empty!
even I cant play ALWAYS hidden source!, it will be forgotten, LIKE THE HUNDREDS OF OTHER MODS!.


Hidden:Source stands out from other mods partially thanks to it's steep learning curve,
ZOMG! :eek: ITS SOUND LIKE THAT WAS A GOOD THING!! .......
i know mods who have a steeper learning curve as hidden!
what hidden make stand out iSNT THE ****ing LEARING CURVE!

- the asymetrical gameplay
- the great balance of weapons and abilitys
- skill based system, not random code
- AN INVISIBEL MAN!
- never ending fun
- great addmoshere
- creppy stalked feeling
- scaryness
..
should i post more?

and it will continue to be steep until Ging decides to make the learning curve easyer
jup. but ging has this thread not NOed, so its COULD become a LITTLE bid easier.

ok?

Master of Puppets
16th May 2008, 19:43
Well for ppl that join a server and start asking what is pounce and whats the button for radio there will never be the learning curve good enough.

-SM-SUCKER
16th May 2008, 20:03
I don't think the developer team wanted the mod to have such a steep learning curve in the first place.
I think they jsut don't want to sacrifice other game features just to make it easier. An updated tutorial would just do it, but you will always have problems with those that are to proud to start a tutorial because they are so 313373.

Paegus
16th May 2008, 21:35
well we've already discussed the solution to that... but i'll mention here anyway.

a fully rounded tutorial and the requirement that both iris and hidden tutorials be completed prior to enabling online play... i know it'll drive some gamers away because they want to jump right in and pwn some n00bs or something but frankly i don't care. they need to sod off with their "holy crap you cheater! how do you move so quickly... huh?... what's pounce?"s and the like.

Zabiela
17th May 2008, 00:01
the requirement that both iris and hidden tutorials be completed prior to enabling online play...

Prior to? What about people from previous versions, aka US? And the new players who dont like tut's......

Basically, I think a tut is GREAT, but it can't by any means be mandatory?

Paegus
17th May 2008, 01:03
existing players: it's a cvar you see. you play once and it sets and is saved in your config.cfg.
dont like playing tuts:
i know it'll drive some gamers away because they want to jump right in and pwn some n00bs or something but frankly i don't care. they need to sod off with their "holy crap you cheater! how do you move so quickly... huh?... what's pounce?"s and the like....though if they really want to they can bypass it with the cvar mentioned above.

darktimes
17th May 2008, 10:03
ok. when you make a new tutorial, fine. we need anyway to see how it works etc.

Flood
21st May 2008, 17:50
This game does seem to be unfriendly towards new players. I think the best way for people to learn this game, is learn the hard way.

Zabiela
22nd May 2008, 02:55
I think the best way for people to learn this game, is learn the hard way.

If you want lube, use the tutorials :D

Ritalin
22nd May 2008, 17:28
I dont want to seem like the giant jerk in the room, but the fact is that this player only posted once. He has not replied to any of the valid responses that were posted by you good people. He got worked and he wanted to complain, thats it.

I was on the server that he is speaking of in his post. Im the admin there so I have to play on the beginner server at times. He was complaining, tips were given,the hidden in motion and the hidden in place were shown, orders were given (by me) to play a little lighter. Yet he still complained. The server he is speaking of is 2frag4fun beginner, the server runs a script to beacon a player at 20 points and place a player in surveillance at 30 till the next map starts. This leads to most of the experienced players being jerks and getting removed from the server because their score hit 30 too quick or dumbing down their attacks and using the 303 as an IRIS. It works!

I know most of you are worried that the mod will die off because we dont have new blood coming in. But in truth this is just not the case. I see new players all the time, some stay and get better and others do not. Thats how this community has always been. Thats how any community in a game with a high learning curve is. It really attracts only those that love a challenge to stay on and get better.

As stated I feel the game is next to perfect in its current state for the type of game it is. Maybe a tweak her or there but nothing radical. As I have said in other posts the best thing for this community would be the expanded game styles available in beta5 as well as a very versatile tutorial mode. I suggest that some of you worldcraft/hammer heads (sorry for the pun) get busy on a versatile tutorial level that will cover all the things a new player needs. At that point we maybe able to convince the powers that be to release a small update that allow the bot IRIS members to behave appropriately in the tutorial.

MrBone
22nd May 2008, 19:52
This leads to most of the experienced players being jerks and getting removed from the server because their score hit 30 too quick or dumbing down their attacks and using the 303 as an IRIS. It works!


At 30? Shit, If I was on a server with no people I know and some asshat pro ganks people so hard he's leading that much I'd leave much sooner than that. I'd go away myself if i was the one leading with that kind of score.

*edit*
So i guess i do care about the noobs.....

Zabiela
22nd May 2008, 19:59
At 30? Shit, If I was on a server with no people I know and some asshat pro ganks people so hard he's leading that much I'd leave much sooner than that. I'd go away myself if i was the one leading with that kind of score.

American servers have a higher shithead to regular player ratio.

Radio Controlled
22nd May 2008, 21:44
well it comes a bit late but a logn time ago id posted this
into POTW :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v713/spucknapp/hiddenkarikatur.jpg

Ritalin
23rd May 2008, 00:27
At 30? Shit, If I was on a server with no people I know and some asshat pro ganks people so hard he's leading that much I'd leave much sooner than that. I'd go away myself if i was the one leading with that kind of score.

In truth it happens so infrequently that most of the new kids end up asking "why the hell is that guy beeping". Its not my server, if it was it would be random with a handicap heath system that takes effect at 15 kills. But the system does tend to keep the regulars off the noob server. Having the other regulars relentlessly tease those found on the noob server may have something to do with that as well.

My point was really that this OP is just one of those whiners that wouldn't be please unless he was murdering everyone himself.


American servers have a higher shithead to regular player ratio.

Hay now. Lets keep it in perspective...

America has a higher shithead to regular people ratio in general. Why should our game server be any different.

But Zab you know me. Im all about teasing and playing with newbies. I have no qualms telling my regulars that they are acting like stat whores. But in truth thats how the playing field in this game is like. You go from a noob, to a killing machine, to a relentless teasing machine.

Zabiela
23rd May 2008, 00:29
But Zab you (know?) me. Im all about teasing and playing with newbies. I have no qualms telling my regulars that they are acting like stat whores. But in truth thats how the playing field in this game is like. You go from a noob, to a killing machine, to a relentless teasing machine.

Yup

Im specifically speaking of players refusing to go into "teasing" mode.

Flood
23rd May 2008, 18:05
well it comes a bit late but a logn time ago id posted this
into POTW :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v713/spucknapp/hiddenkarikatur.jpg

LMAO!!!

Anyway, well said Ritalin, I totally agree. Although that beginner server needs to be dumbed down even more.

QReaper
23rd May 2008, 18:20
No I don't care about the "newbie" and I will tell you why:

This community, for as long as I can remember it, has never been incredibly newbie friendly. Anyone here has broken through that barrier and learned how to stand up on their own two feet here and I see that as better than holding their hand.

This has been so for years and I highly doubt anything is going to change in the next year that wouldn't have changed in the last four. If you'll notice that the oldest post on the website is from 2005. I'd like you to know that this community has been around since before that considering that website design wasn't always like that.

It's like going to school. You've got to drudge through an unwelcoming group of people who think they're better than you before you get anywhere.

TheOtherDante
23rd May 2008, 22:11
well it comes a bit late but a logn time ago id posted this
into POTW :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v713/spucknapp/hiddenkarikatur.jpg

i still disagree with that, i think that applies more to intermidiate players who can see you but still have a tough time hitting you. the only time i think that really applies is if you make a habit of jumping directly infront of thier fire (case in point me).

but ya this community well noob friendly, while the game itself isnt.

many of us are very willing to show new players the ropes and help get into the game (for our own selfish need for freashmeat). but ritilin is right and thats happen to me (i went thourgh the advance stright to tease after becoming a killing machine) but now am stuck there and having trouble going back to killing machine. i think if we can adjust the tut alil more for the iris to assist them in seeing the hidden (hidden moving around in a larger cage with multiple textures).

eyeofgod
3rd June 2008, 20:09
i own ritalin.

TheOtherDante
3rd June 2008, 21:10
well you my good sir are automatically a douche in my book.

Ritalin
4th June 2008, 01:36
i own ritalin.

Im sorry but I dont remember you at all.

AfroDan
4th June 2008, 06:12
I have found for the most part that the hidden community to be VERY friendly to "noobs." When I started most "Vets" would have no problem explaining how the game worked. And when playing in a small game even show new players how to play better. But then you would get the people who want to stat whore. But that for the most part is a built in thing to all HL games NO matter what country.

-SM-SUCKER
4th June 2008, 10:45
But that for the most part is a built in thing to all [HL] games NO matter what country.
All games have stats whores... not only video games

RONALDO IS A STATS WHORE !!
:D

FFAF
4th June 2008, 11:16
Download the
Noob friendly Hidden Source.com :

Now with just one Map(the all new Tutorialland)

and 1 Button Radio Taunt:

Colin Wakefield: Ok IRIS you can go to sleep now and camp your beds, i used NOCLIP and killed that 617fucker to prevent him from breaking out and giving us a a hard time!

Game Over, press the Noob Button to play again!

:D


I really try to help where i can , if somebody on the server need some help!

Phaedrus
4th June 2008, 23:13
I care about noobs. I just opened a 3-man practice server. Let me know what you guys think about the setup. Suggestions are most welcome.

Settings:
Random selection
Pigstick on
Friendly fire off
1 pipebomb
1 hidden round
6 minute rounds
30 minute maps with unlimited extends

Scripts:
FightBot script (IRIS bot which shoots back when attacked)
To do: handicap script and/or expert auto kick/ban script

Gameplay adverts:


Use aura view (def: c) to see through walls.
Aim up and use pounce (def: MOUSE3) to jump further.
Hold the pounce key (def: MOUSE3) to cling to walls.
You can cling to walls (def: MOUSE3) to pounce higher.
The pigstick (def: MOUSE2) takes longer, but kills instantly.
Crouch (def: CTRL) while pouncing to avoid rails.
Crouching (def: CTRL) creates a smaller target.
Use pipebombs on groups to disorient them before you attack.
The Less Lethal Launcher shoots blinding poison.
Place Sonic Alarms on walls where the Hidden may cross.
Adrenaline will make you run faster, but blurs your vision.
Recover up to 25 health per body by slashing it.
The use key (def: e) can grab objects and bodies.
Use pigstick (def: MOUSE2) to pin bodies to walls.
Fling objects to do physics damage.
The Hidden is more visible when moving, but harder to hit.
Try to jump on player's heads when they are corner camping.
Pounce in to attack so they don't hear you walking.
Pounce away after an attack to avoid damage.
Use objects to distract and waste ammunition.
Watch their aim and move if they have spotted you.
In overrun (ovr_ maps) dead IRIS respawn as Hidden.
The Hidden is more visible next to patterned surfaces.
Turn off HDR if you get a black screen instead of blur.This server is running all the standard maps (except origin and decay *cough*fix*cough*windows*cough*HDR). The fight bot wanders around and uses a crude targeting method to shoot back when attacked (actual noob quote: "Damn bot shot me!"). It is pretty easy to kill, but presents some challenge. This allows for up to 2 real players maximum. With the current settings, they will alternate turns as Hidden each round as the bot is always IRIS.

Paegus
4th June 2008, 23:59
if you're using mani, those adverts are too long. either that or i'm a moron who can't figure out how to make the text box space larger.

Phaedrus
5th June 2008, 00:07
They fit on my display, but I don't know about others. They are also displayed in the chat area, which should be fine.

EDIT: Here is a screenshot of one of the adverts. It's not the longest one, but it also shows me taking a shotty to the face from the FightBot.

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/659/hdnstalkyard0003ub6.jpg (http://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hdnstalkyard0003ub6.jpg)

Paegus
5th June 2008, 00:35
hmm well that's annoying. they cut off with... for me at about 2/3rds that long. though it might just be my client. /shrug

what are you going to do about bot hiddens? good luck trying to explain that the bot will be randomly milling around its spawn point. well i mean it's easy enough to say that, repeatedly, but actually having players understand, let alone read the message in the first place... have them forfeit might be less troublesome.

and i assume some sort of auto-slot bot add/remove will be in-place to keep at least 1 slot open...


Use pipebombs on groups to disorient them before you attack.
lol. they'll be popular in the better servers where such winning-oriented tactics are frowned upon.

Phaedrus
5th June 2008, 00:49
hmm well that's annoying. they cut off with... for me at about 2/3rds that long. though it might just be my client. /shrug

I have a 16:10 screen, but run a 4:3 resolution. Who knows?


what are you going to do about bot hiddens? good luck trying to explain that the bot will be randomly milling around its spawn point. well i mean it's easy enough to say that, repeatedly, but actually having players understand, let alone read the message in the first place... have them forfeit might be less troublesome.

and i assume some sort of auto-slot bot add/remove will be in-place to keep at least 1 slot open...

The bot does forfeit. There is only 1 one them at this point so slotting isn't an issue, but the code is actually already there as this script is based on the ScoreBots script I wrote. Only real players will be Hidden unless they forfeit as well. I suppose I should suicide the bot if it is selected or just force player forfeits off. EDIT: I added forcing player forfeit off.

EDIT: I suppose I could come up with some system for Hidden bots since players need to learn to spot them. Perhaps I could track the players location and occasionally teleport the Hidden bot secretly to where they just left, then have it start attacking. It's gimmicky but it may do the trick for noobs. I mean, it is practice right?


lol. they'll be popular in the better servers where such winning-oriented tactics are frowned upon.

Well, you gotta start somewhere. Noobs need such tactics to be competitive with better players. Anyway, it explains how they work is the point.

Genre
5th June 2008, 04:44
I say limit the pipebombs to one anyway so that double/triple nading doesn't become a habit. They still get the opportunity to use one, but are then forced to use the knife and/or objects. Otherwise, this seems like a great idea!

Phaedrus
5th June 2008, 18:12
Yes, one nade is plenty. Thanks.

Radio Controlled
6th June 2008, 02:49
where can i download that bot?

Phaedrus
6th June 2008, 04:19
I haven't released the script yet. It is still in development at this point.

siervua
11th June 2008, 14:41
I'm up for making a newbie server if we could agree on what would be best ;)

Wenchy