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Ritalin
17th April 2008, 19:16
I decided to repost this in a new thread. I wanted to expound on the idea a little.

I have a different idea to handling the 3 triple slash issue, if it is even an issue at all. Most of the time the triple slash that gets me is the one where my feet/legs are assaulted. Usually the result of getting stuck on the hidden. I do feel slightly robbed at this point, but in truth this rarely happens. If the player manages to accomplish the triple slash through a series of pounces, well that was skillful in my humble opinion. Leaning to move in and out in quick fashion with the pounce is one of the learned skills intended for the gameplay.

If you feel this is really a cheap tactic then petition your favorite server to up the stamina drain for the hidden. This will quickly change the tactics of the user playing hidden, as going for the triple slash may very well leave him with no jumpin juice to escape if another IRIS member joins the fray.

My suggestion is to make a three hit kill harder to accomplish, needing some extra skill or luck to pull it off. My suggestion would be to add multiple hitbox damage weights to different body parts.

Example:
Head =40 (largest amount possible)
Torso = 30
Legs/Arms = 20

This would allow for hits needed to kill to range from 3 hits to 5. This would also introduce another layer of skill to the hidden's learning curve.

The addition of multiple hit boxes may also add a bit more skill to the physics issue that is being tweaked now. I personally feel that if I score a head shot with an enormous XBOX traveling 50mph, that IRIS should be toast. I even feel that crushing an IRIS from above with a barrel is acceptable. However slinging a pallet full speed into the feet on a full health IRIS member should not result in the lifeless body of the recipient flying across the length of the map. Adding a range and limit to different body parts would allow for 1 hit physics kills to take place only in very lucky or very skillful hands.

Could a player learn to become very effective with the triple slash even with these settings in place? YEA! Could a few players learn to once again score one hit kills with physics with regularity? YEA! However at some point we have to quit adding padding to the street lamps, just so new players can have a chance. The opposite side of the coin to the "We need new players to keep the Mod alive." argument, is the fact that players will not stay on if the learning curve is made too shallow.

Aaron Thy Baron
17th April 2008, 19:55
I like this idea due to the way he states that heads should be prone to more damage.

I enjoy being accurate, if this would be implemented I would be even more accurate and so I would be more joyful.

imo

Ritalin
17th April 2008, 19:59
I like this idea due to the way he states that heads should be prone to more damage.

I enjoy being accurate, if this would be implemented I would be even more accurate and so I would be more joyful.

imo

And a wonderful opinion it is.

imo

-Silєηt-
17th April 2008, 20:28
great idea..

ging should hopefully like this one...

-SM-SUCKER
17th April 2008, 20:58
I'm not sure if I like this idea.
And I think it would easily overpower the Hidden. Because every one that has played this mod enough to do those devilish fly-by slashes will also be able to do it flying OVER his victim. Leaving the IRIS without a clue where the Hidden is and doing a lot of damage.
The main problem are the uber Hiddens. Those who have played this mod and can do almost anything they like if they want to. If it's possible you should limit those players, not the casual gamers.

Paegus
17th April 2008, 21:08
...However slinging a pallet full speed into the feet on a full health IRIS member should not result in the lifeless body of the recipient flying across the length of the map...

why not? you've shattered his leg bones, he's effectively useless for combat purposes.

don't fall into that old trap of thinking that hit points are health. after all the age old adage holds true:

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/6654/hitpointsiy2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Phaedrus
17th April 2008, 21:38
why not? you've shattered his leg bones, he's effectively useless for combat purposes.

don't fall into that old trap of thinking that hit points are health. after all the age old adage holds true:

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/6654/hitpointsiy2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Love that scene...

Demented
17th April 2008, 22:11
why not? you've shattered his leg bones, he's effectively useless for combat purposes.

don't fall into that old trap of thinking that hit points are health.

If hitpoints aren't health, then where does shattering the guy's leg bones come into it? :p

Ritalin
18th April 2008, 04:45
I'm not sure if I like this idea.
And I think it would easily overpower the Hidden. Because every one that has played this mod enough to do those devilish fly-by slashes will also be able to do it flying OVER his victim. Leaving the IRIS without a clue where the Hidden is and doing a lot of damage.
The main problem are the uber Hiddens. Those who have played this mod and can do almost anything they like if they want to. If it's possible you should limit those players, not the casual gamers.

Well in truth is doesn't give him an advantage as he can ALREADY kill you in 3 slashes, very easily. So yea the guys that are really good they can still do it. Thats the point of this argument, it needs skill and practice to pull off. A pouncing slash to the arm, butt, and big toe can kill you right now, but where is the precision in that? Plus we all know that these "uber" hiddens you speak of tend to have a habit of playing with their food, which keeps triple slashing to a minimum.

I am not of the opinion that the triple slash is overpowered in its current state. But I am of the opinion that more depth in FPS gameplay is NEVER a bad thing. Im not interested in softening the game up for noobs. Why should we? We all had to go through the old days, with not limits on the hidden. The bastard use to be like watching a Super Bounce Ball in a hallway. Pigsticking wasn't frowned upon, it was a fact of life. One on One matches, where you had to try your damnedest to avoid all three nades some bastard had earmarked just for you. I went through all of that and I still loved the game, so did a good many of you. In the begining for me it was the thrill of being hunted that was alot of fun and honestly scared the shit out of me.



why not? you've shattered his leg bones, he's effectively useless for combat purposes.

:rolleyes: Im guessing this was joke, as we both know you wouldn't seriously bring up reality in a video game discussion about gameplay and balance... Since this was a joke, I will reply with one.
What if the IRIS was in full sprint, just at the point when both feet are off the ground, the pallet hits his front foot and slings it backwards. This causes his upper body to be flung forward resulting in his head slamming into the floor. This of course would result in a one hit kill as the head hit box still received a massive impact. It just took several factors to cause it. Think how great the animation would be for this.

-SM-SUCKER
18th April 2008, 10:25
Well in truth is doesn't give him an advantage as he can ALREADY kill you in 3 slashes, very easily. So yea the guys that are really good they can still do it. Thats the point of this argument, it needs skill and practice to pull off. A pouncing slash to the arm, butt, and big toe can kill you right now, but where is the precision in that? Plus we all know that these "uber" hiddens you speak of tend to have a habit of playing with their food, which keeps triple slashing to a minimum.

Problem is that new guys would need 4-5 slashes to kill an IRIS member. And I think we all know the learning curve right now is already steep. No need to walk up the Niagara Falls. Keep it the way it is for the newcomers and make it a bit more challanging for the "veterans".

Paegus
18th April 2008, 12:25
If hitpoints aren't health, then where does shattering the guy's leg bones come into it? :p

combot potential?

darktimes
18th April 2008, 13:01
I like this idea.

and i disagree that newbies need 5 hits.
new players tent to hit the body, not legs..
mean 3 hits for newbies and the iris is on 10hp.

physics:
I think physics should stay the way they are now.

i mean: when youre hit by a 30kg metal barrel whit a speed of 70km/h thrown by a genetic mutated superman full of hate, and anger.
are you still alive then?

when the metal barrel hit youre feet and rip youre legs whit off?
think of the force of the barrel. the speed whould rip youre under body off.

Ritalin
18th April 2008, 19:22
Problem is that new guys would need 4-5 slashes to kill an IRIS member. And I think we all know the learning curve right now is already steep. No need to walk up the Niagara Falls. Keep it the way it is for the newcomers and make it a bit more challanging for the "veterans".

Again I will point out that you and I didnt need it to be easy for us to continue to like the game. And new players will continue as they do now, double grenading us and the like, happy to get one or two kills as the hidden. Thats it though, thats all they should be getting... they are new players. Why should new players be able to have just as easy a time playing as the hidden as the seasoned players?

Ritalin
18th April 2008, 19:30
I like this idea.

and i disagree that newbies need 5 hits.
new players tent to hit the body, not legs..
mean 3 hits for newbies and the iris is on 10hp.

Well if you cant kill the hidden after 4 slashes, maybe you just need to practice a little more.


physics:
I think physics should stay the way they are now.

when the metal barrel hit youre feet and rip youre legs whit off?
think of the force of the barrel. the speed whould rip youre under body off.

I agree but again, we are discussing gameplay and balance here. That means reality has little to do with the topic at hand. Also I must note that if you think physing is fine the way it is now, then you have yet to play with some of the better players in this community.

Zabiela
18th April 2008, 19:43
As a player with somewhat unstable ping, I don't and can't aim my slashes.
If my ping is over 100, only about a third of my slashes hit when they're supposed to anyway.

I actually noted, and liked the fact that there is no selective damage in the hidden.

Ritalin
18th April 2008, 23:43
As a player with somewhat unstable ping, I don't and can't aim my slashes.
If my ping is over 100, only about a third of my slashes hit when they're supposed to anyway.

I actually noted, and liked the fact that there is no selective damage in the hidden.

Im not sure that your ping would matter at the range you need to be to score a hit. I dont think it would be any different then it is now. I mean if your aiming for the guys head its not like your gonna hit his foot.

Demented
19th April 2008, 00:21
Body damage is increasingly showing itself to be horrible for arcade-style gameplay.
Oftentimes the hits are random (the weapons aren't accurate enough past a certain distance for your aiming to matter), or you aren't trying to hit any particular spot. When that happens, you're either going to kill someone surprisingly quickly with lucky headshots, or you'll never get a headshot and the guy takes forever to die. With melee weapons it's even worse because of how they determine hits, and the horrible prediction (which is decent for distance weapons, but counter-productive at melee range).

Also, there is no good reason to make things arbitrarily difficult for new players simply because they are new players.

Ritalin
19th April 2008, 06:05
counter-productive.

OK well I guess not many people share my views on this.
I do have to say that I dont see how this would make things much more difficult for a new player. Most new players are not worried as much about how many kills they will score as the hidden. But more about how long they can stay alive as an IRIS.

The only thing I can understand in reference to your your argument that the knife isn't accurate in source net code, is that it will change the 7foot stretch attacks associated with flybys. These will be weaker in most cases. However I don't see this being a negative. Becoming efficient with 20point hits like this could be perceived as a more physical style of taunting. While I know that hit detection for melee is sometimes doggy in Source, I don't think it is near as bad as you make it out to be. If there are already false hits as hidden, I don't see the amount of them rising just because the hit boxes have different damages associated with them. Further I am quite sure I can hit an intended body part right now with reasonable accuracy.

edit°
19th April 2008, 14:41
Body damage is increasingly showing itself to be horrible for arcade-style gameplay.
Oftentimes the hits are random (the weapons aren't accurate enough past a certain distance for your aiming to matter), or you aren't trying to hit any particular spot. When that happens, you're either going to kill someone surprisingly quickly with lucky headshots, or you'll never get a headshot and the guy takes forever to die. With melee weapons it's even worse because of how they determine hits, and the horrible prediction (which is decent for distance weapons, but counter-productive at melee range).

Also, there is no good reason to make things arbitrarily difficult for new players simply because they are new players.

I agree (again and again) with Demented. What I will add is that I personally don't see the benefit in the time and effort it would take to implement this really or the real reasoning.

edit: Props for working an idea through and being constructive, it just doesn't pan out in my head. Good on you though.



I agree but again, we are discussing gameplay and balance here.

To sum up:

Its harder for newer players because if they hit the legs they do less damage than currently, if they hit the body its the same. Headshots in a game this fast when you're new are blind luck.

It gives experienced players the chance to kill people even faster than they currently can and so would only add to the triple-slashing pyre.

This doesn't address the balance at all imho, or if it does I don't see it doing anything but further tipping the scales against the inexperienced. In order for this to do anything other than what I've listed you're still relying on the experienced player not wanting to fly around and murder everyone in seconds. This doesn't actually affect tripleslashing as far as I can see in the case of anyone other than the new players.

I mean no offence but it seems to be more a case of you thinking "I've been playing longer, I know for a fact I'm better, why should that guy kill me when hes been here a week just by laying down and slashing?". I think the newer players need every kill they can get otherwise they won't stick around for long. Getting killed round after round is something new players will have to get used to, theres no way to fix that, but depriving them of the odd kill they do get as hidden would make them quit even faster imho.

Ritalin
20th April 2008, 05:44
Its harder for newer players because if they hit the legs they do less damage than currently, if they hit the body its the same. Headshots in a game this fast when you're new are blind luck.

Any new player scoring a triple slash is pretty much blind luck as well.




It gives experienced players the chance to kill people even faster than they currently can and so would only add to the triple-slashing pyre.

I dont see how it would be possible to kill someone faster. I'm not suggesting to change the slash timing, and three hits is still the lowest number of hits it would take to kill.




This doesn't address the balance at all imho, or if it does I don't see it doing anything but further tipping the scales against the inexperienced. In order for this to do anything other than what I've listed you're still relying on the experienced player not wanting to fly around and murder everyone in seconds. This doesn't actually affect tripleslashing as far as I can see in the case of anyone other than the new players.

No matter what we do there will always be people flying around murdering people as quick as they can. Lets say that we decide to make it 4 hits to kill as the standard. Thats more time to react as requested. However a new player is is still going to see himself getting murdered far to fast for his liking, and soon some one will be complaining about quad-slashing. Like I said, at some point we need to stop padding the street lamps.



I mean no offence but it seems to be more a case of you thinking "I've been playing longer, I know for a fact I'm better, why should that guy kill me when hes been here a week just by laying down and slashing?".

Dont worry Ill survive
http://hidden-stats.co.uk/signature/mystats4.png.php/STEAM_0:0:5546453



I think the newer players need every kill they can get otherwise they won't stick around for long. Getting killed round after round is something new players will have to get used to, theres no way to fix that, but depriving them of the odd kill they do get as hidden would make them quit even faster imho.


We will have to agree to disagree. My personal experience as a new player was to kill that fu_ken invisible guy that wants me dead as much as possible. When I did get the hidden I didnt expect to do very well and I didnt. I had to practice to become a good hidden. I dont see how having this additional aspect would change that idea. I would bet you money that if you ask new players "What would you like more, a chance at living longer as IRIS or an easy time as the hidden?" they would answer with living longer, as most expect to be playing the part of the IRIS more so then hidden. Even they know they're new.

-SM-SUCKER
20th April 2008, 07:26
Any new player scoring a triple slash is pretty much blind luck as well.
Why is it always "luck" if someone kills who-ever-read-this ?

I dont see how it would be possible to kill someone faster. I'm not suggesting to change the slash timing, and three hits is still the lowest number of hits it would take to kill.
With the numbers you chose you CAN inflict more damage with 2 slashes. So if somene was shot/fell he will eventually die with 2 slashes where he would still have 1 hp with the current system.

Dont worry Ill survive
http://hidden-stats.co.uk/signature/mystats4.png.php/STEAM_0:0:5546453
*insert picture of giant e-penis here*
I don't know exaclty what you want to change and why. If you want to increase the number of slashes needed, it's the wrong aproach. Because it will make the learning curve even steeper. And the gaming experience for new ones will be even more frustrating if they cannot kill with 3 headshots, but they need 5 because they only hit the legs.
BUT if you would couple the slashing damage to the stamina left it would only affecting the more experienced pouncing-like-a-madman Hiddens who already are overpowered. And don't tell me the Hidden is not overpowered, because else I will have to quote you on your stats :p

Digit*
20th April 2008, 11:24
Didn't you already quote him on his stats right now?

Anyway, the stamina idea is so far the best spin-off of the original idea yet. I can surely see that working. Thing is, now all we need to hear from the dev's how they feel about it but seeing the general lack of response i'm not quite sure how they think about it...

Didn't get ultimatly No'd but it has neither been said that the idea was a good one and might be worked upon further. Time will tell.

edit°
20th April 2008, 13:55
No matter what we do there will always be people flying around murdering people as quick as they can. Lets say that we decide to make it 4 hits to kill as the standard. Thats more time to react as requested. However a new player is is still going to see himself getting murdered far to fast for his liking, and soon some one will be complaining about quad-slashing. Like I said, at some point we need to stop padding the street lamps.

What you suggest DOES make it 4 hits to kill as standard/5 if you're crouching which most new players will do. Now when you've got people who can pick a hidden out of the air with a 303 (I know I could and many other vets could when I played, a fair while ago that was too, so the mind boggles at what they'll be doing now) what chance does a newbie have? He has even less if you up the number of slashes needed to kill people unless you hit the head. Factor into that the shoddy hit detection in source and I would put money on players leaving because of it. It goes from difficult to impossible. Not to mention that you're not always going to have a vet there whos willing/able to explain why someone with 90+ ping just hit a guy 8 times before getting shotgunned to the face the one time EVER hes managed to luckily become the hidden.

This is nothing to do with padding streetlamps. Its to do with not being completely elitist and making it harder for the new guys as a pointless standard. The mod simply will not grow any more popular if you make it harder without any real benefit to the change. Forget popularity it just doesn't make the game any better. What does this actually add to the mod?


PS. You can wave stats around all you like, theres a reason people still listen to me when I come back after a hiatus longer than your membership to the forum ;)







/sleepswithboxy

Digit*
20th April 2008, 14:04
/sleepswithboxy

sick...

Ritalin
20th April 2008, 20:45
I don't know exaclty what you want to change and why. If you want to increase the number of slashes needed, it's the wrong aproach. Because it will make the learning curve even steeper. And the gaming experience for new ones will be even more frustrating if they cannot kill with 3 headshots, but they need 5 because they only hit the legs.
BUT if you would couple the slashing damage to the stamina left it would only affecting the more experienced pouncing-like-a-madman Hiddens who already are overpowered.

In defense of my idea most new players do NOT duck. Most new players do not pounce. Most new players run around upright slashing at the body as they feel they are just as invisible to you and I as we are to them. The only people you would help by instituting the stamina=slash damage idea would be those that are brand new, like >12 hours playtime brand new. Also the pouncing like a madman style does not work will if you have hitbox based damage as strike angles need to be more thought out and contrived to be effective. You know full well that the making of a good IRIS member has just as much to with his ability to predict the hiddens next move as it does with his ability to see and hear the hidden. This means that three strike kills are much more dangerous to attempt on even a moderately skilled IRIS member.

I am fully aware that this will in no way help a brand spanking new player out. But any gamer is well aware of the fact that they are going to suck when they first play any online multiplayer game. Its the challenge itself that will make players gravitate towards or away from a game. So if a player does not like the challenge of trying to kill the simi-invisible guy when they first try the game, no change to the slash to kill ratio will change their minds. I don't see why people think that we should be codling these players. They are new and they are supposed to suck. Codling deficiency is exactly what has turned most of my fellow Americans into uneducated, skilless, egotistical idiots.

I think that some changes to the tutorial, would do more to help brad new players then any changes to the gameplay. Showing some of the finer points of the game would be a huge boon for these players, considering that at present the tutorial shows maybe a quarter of what they will encounter in game. The tutorial as it stands serves to explain pouncing as the hidden more than anything else. Things like adding a beacon to a bot hidden pouncing around at different angles and speeds would give a better example of the hidden's mobility. A sandbox style room with non mobile IRIS that can be properly slashed and physed to get a handle on attacks. Even target practice on a moving hidden would help.



*insert picture of giant e-penis here*
Ok first off no need to be a jerk concerning my stats. Throwing grade school insults isn't really constructive now is it? He insinuated that I just might not be good enough at IRIS to handle the situation. I dont care if your stats are better then mine, or if mine are better then others. The reason I posted the stats was to show that I can take care of myself just fine and to show that I have a large amount play time to backup the validity of my claim. I have never played with Edit or you for that matter, Im assuming the reason is an oceans with of lag between us. I am fairly well known on my side. I try to help new players out as often as I can. As I am trying to do here.

Ritalin
20th April 2008, 20:47
What you suggest DOES make it 4 hits to kill as standard/5 if you're crouching which most new players will do. Now when you've got people who can pick a hidden out of the air with a 303 (I know I could and many other vets could when I played, a fair while ago that was too, so the mind boggles at what they'll be doing now) what chance does a newbie have? He has even less if you up the number of slashes needed to kill people unless you hit the head. Factor into that the shoddy hit detection in source and I would put money on players leaving because of it. It goes from difficult to impossible. Not to mention that you're not always going to have a vet there whos willing/able to explain why someone with 90+ ping just hit a guy 8 times before getting shotgunned to the face the one time EVER hes managed to luckily become the hidden.

You didnt actually respond to my last comment, you just kind of kept going with what you were stating before. New players want to kill the hidden more then they want to kill as the hidden. Also the shotgun is being nerfed, so combined with the fact that almost all players are familiar with pitfalls of lag that negates that part of the argument. I would assume your long hiatus from the forum to be the reason for not being aware of the changes to the shotgun. :p



What does this actually add to the mod?

A little bit more precision. A little bit more strategy. A little bit more depth.



PS. You can wave stats around all you like, theres a reason people still listen to me when I come back after a hiatus longer than your membership to the forum ;)

*insert picture of giant e-penis here*
PS. You can wave join dates around all you like, theres a reason new players listen to me when I teach them what they should be trying to do in the game.

Your join date does not instantly bequeath wisdom. Since you have yet to address the point I made about new players, I will be one forum member that does not yet listen to what you have to say. My stats do show that I can and do defend myself just fine. As stated before I am assuming you are on the other side of the pond from me, the stats were just posted to let you know who I am.

jeebo
20th April 2008, 21:08
OK - as someone who HASN'T been playing that long (2 months, give or take a week), I have to say I like where you're going, Ritalin, but the issues with lag WILL hurt the targeting aspect, as some folks will luck out and get a head shot when they were aiming at the chest, while others will be ticked because their head shots turned out to be leg shots due to lag or poor hitbox recognition. It's already weird enough, getting shot 30 feet away, 10 feet past a corner, for 98 dmg. I think keep developing the idea, or someone find a way to resolve the hitbox issues a bit before this could work. I do have to say, by the way, to the devs: this game has GREAT latency-handling, as when I go to HL2 DeathMatch to a low latency server, the lag is unbearable. I come back to a Hidden server with even greater than twicer the latency, and it's still very playable. Kudos.

Ritalin, I do, however, totally agree with updating the tutorial to include a bit more on the interactive part of the game, since that is the point - it IS multiplayer. Granted, trial by fire is one of the best ways to learn sometimes, but when you get onto a few servers with unsharing elitists, you die and don't learn since no one will share of their experience, and then you may not come back. I've been fortunate enough to play with some very cool people who are willing to break it down and help others learn how to be better. Back to the point, though, learning how to pounce across a gap doesn't help one to stab while flying overhead, or how to fling objects (especially at moving targets), nor does looking at the Hidden in a box help one to spot it while moving or dodge phys objects. Good start, but a teeny bit more depth could be cool, too.

Zabiela
20th April 2008, 21:15
A little bit more precision. A little bit more strategy. A little bit more depth.

This thread is entitled "Triple slashing made interesting".

How does this concern hiddens who triple slash?

edit: Nevermind, this sums up my thoughts exaclty


I don't know exactly what you want to change and why. If you want to increase the number of slashes needed, it's the wrong aproach. Because it will make the learning curve even steeper. And the gaming experience for new ones will be even more frustrating if they cannot kill with 2 headshots, but they need 5 because they only hit the legs.
BUT if you couple the slash damage to the stamina left it would only affect the more experienced pouncing-like-a-madman Hiddens who are already overpowered.

That is the issue with triple slashing, there in bold, imo.

Ritalin
20th April 2008, 22:05
This thread is entitled "Triple slashing made interesting".

How does this concern hiddens who triple slash?

edit: Nevermind, this sums up my thoughts exaclty

Because it would make triple slashing something that needs to be practiced to accomplish as apposed to the standard it is now. I thought that would be obvious.





Originally Posted by -SM-SUCKER
I don't know exactly what you want to change and why. If you want to increase the number of slashes needed, it's the wrong aproach. Because it will make the learning curve even steeper. And the gaming experience for new ones will be even more frustrating if they cannot kill with 2 headshots, but they need 5 because they only hit the legs.
BUT if you couple the slash damage to the stamina left it would only affect the more experienced pouncing-like-a-madman Hiddens who are already overpowered.
That is the issue with triple slashing, there in bold, imo.

Correct me if Im wrong, but doesn't coupling the slash power to the stamina increase the number of slashes needed, if you don't attack with a certain method? Doesn't he say above that this is the wrong approach. Slash coupled to the stamina drastically changes the game play. It also makes understanding the play mechanics unnecessarily difficult for new players. Hitboxs on the other hand are pretty common now days.

darktimes
21st April 2008, 07:14
there are more ways to make triple slashing not worse.

allright: who have played hidden yesterday?

the game just FEEL FINISHED.

triple slashers are sometimes annoying. but just go crouch and blast him 12 gauge pellets in the face!

there are many points to NOT add different dmage hitboxes.
and the only reason TO add it is to prevent triple slashes.

a idea.

after 2 slashes you need to wait 1.3 seconds before you can slash again.
sounds good?



Got to about page 5 and thought "see bee ay". Anyone thinking that 'fixing' tripleslashing will take frag-whores or whatever the recent buzzword is out of the game is being very naive. These people who play to ruin everyone elses fun by raping them as fast as possible have been there since the word go and will always be there. This is purely because they get their fun a different way to you. The only way to combat this kind of player is to find a server with a decent ping for you and petition for a certain set of rules on their forum or become an admin with a 0-tolerance policy on what you consider to be bad players. It worked for me on Smokey's aeons ago.

*Hidden zaps around the map like superman on crack, killing everyone with PS in 7 seconds*

me : Don't do that again or you'll be kicked. Its no fun for anyone, new players, old players, admins. Find some way to make sure that everyone doesn't hate the game 5 seconds into it or fuck off because this isn't YOUR server.

them usually : haha, rofl, noob, wtf, bbq, you just wish you were me

me : rcon banid [twat]

Problem solved. And I can safely say through all my experience in gaming so far - its the ONLY way to solve this particular problem. Luckily the hidden community is a good, old-school community where the people considered to be worth listening to tend to not be the 12 year olds who fly around the map raping people and being twats over the mic. I think its in part due to the devs giving twats a stone wall response on the forum and in another part due to how hard we all know the mod is at first and how easy it is once you know what you're doing. Theres a degree of maturity in the euro hidden community (can't speak for the US) that I miss like hell now that I play xbox more than PC games. THAT is the only thing that will help you through the shitstorm of bad players that you get with every online game.

The changes in B5 are about as exhaustive as I would hope and imagine the devs going on gimping aspects of the game that the pwninators love because I think that they and the testers are wary of the mod becoming "The Sims - Invisible Edition". Taking weapons out and taking the piss with regards to damage reduction just seems like a step backwards after all the balancing thats gone into the current setup.

Having said all this, the damage based on how much stamina you have left sounds really interesting, if only because it will help the better hiddens not have to limit themselves so cackhandedly so often without crippling the newer players. Number crunching and discussion on that point seems more worthwhile than talking about how crap it is to be tripleslashed over and over or about how shit it is to lose because of lag. These are factors of online game play and they're here to stay.

from the first thread

edit°
21st April 2008, 12:19
You didnt actually respond to my last comment, you just kind of kept going with what you were stating before. New players want to kill the hidden more then they want to kill as the hidden. Also the shotgun is being nerfed, so combined with the fact that almost all players are familiar with pitfalls of lag that negates that part of the argument. I would assume your long hiatus from the forum to be the reason for not being aware of the changes to the shotgun. :p



A little bit more precision. A little bit more strategy. A little bit more depth.


PS. You can wave join dates around all you like, theres a reason new players listen to me when I teach them what they should be trying to do in the game.

Your join date does not instantly bequeath wisdom. Since you have yet to address the point I made about new players, I will be one forum member that does not yet listen to what you have to say. My stats do show that I can and do defend myself just fine. As stated before I am assuming you are on the other side of the pond from me, the stats were just posted to let you know who I am.


I'm sorry I didn't quote every sentence in your last post and pull it apart for you, I'm thought we were kind of past it here. :rolleyes: Remedy:


You didnt actually respond to my last comment, you just kind of kept going with what you were stating before. New players want to kill the hidden more then they want to kill as the hidden.

New players want to kill the hidden more than play well AS the hidden?? What universe do you live in? From the moment you play this you want to play the invisible maniac, it is what the mod is sold on. EVERYONE is racing to kill it to get a chance to play as the hidden. Maybe you were an unusual beginner in that you enjoyed playing IRIS more? The community's chit-chat and humor tends to ebb and flow around which celebrity hidden is currently revered as being godlike and it always has been since I've been here and blackalpha was doing the superman thing.


almost all players are familiar with pitfalls of lag that negates that part of the argument

Being familiar with lag doesn't stop it happening, so that negates that argument. Again - new players wouldn't be familiar with it as in most other source games melee isn't that big a part. It IS a problem and one that factors massively into how impractical and ultimately unrewarding what you're suggesting is.


I would assume your long hiatus from the forum to be the reason for not being aware of the changes to the shotgun. :p

With regards to the shotgun changes - I helped playtest both the shotgun change TO the powerfull one aeons ago and back again closer to what it was origionally more recently. I'd say I'm aware. Instead of pedantry with regards to the phrases I use you should beat yourself around the head with the main point I'm trying to make a few times :p

The join date was a direct response to you waving your stats around as though it would impress me :P You don't seem to realise that you're saying this:

"I'm good enough to hit people in the head and I know all the mods 'unwritten' ins and outs (re: lag etc) so make it so that headshots do what a normal slash does currently. I can do it. Newbies can't and they shouldn't be able to, because they're not as good as me and haven't played as long."

So... the way we deal with the fact that most vets have to limit themselves to throwing tyres and jimmeh at entire teams of IRIS is by making the game harder for everyone who isn't a vet. Keep tripleslashing in there for the ones good enough to fly over peoples heads and chop them up but make it more difficult for anyone else? This sounds like the POLAR OPPOSITE of the solution everyone wants to the cliff-face learning curve as soon as theres a vet around newer players. People have been trying to figure out a way to somehow handicap the better players so they don't HAVE TO handicap themselves every game without affecting new players, not vica versa.


Your join date does not instantly bequeath wisdom. Since you have yet to address the point I made about new players, I will be one forum member that does not yet listen to what you have to say. My stats do show that I can and do defend myself just fine. As stated before I am assuming you are on the other side of the pond from me, the stats were just posted to let you know who I am.

The fact I've been here longer says a lot more than some naked stats but splattering them across the forum to win an argument about game mechanics helps me get to know you a little bit so I suppose you're right. I'm not in the business of flagwaving or bringing garbage epeen stuff up, I thought (mistakenly) that the fact I've been here a while would help you realise I do know what I'm talking about and that I wasn't bashing your idea out of hand. As far as I was aware I didn't ignore any points and hopefully, since I've done EVERY line in your post you won't say it again this time.

Finally, the thing the whole post was about anyway:

A little bit more precision. A little bit more strategy. A little bit more depth.

All I see it adding are more laggy "WTF I hit him!!!" moments as you have to hit more times unless you're hitting in the head, the added hit giving everyone in the nearby vicinity another chance to pepper you (with any weapon, so as to not be unclear/inaccurate). It also hinders EVERYONE apart from the players good enough to do drive-by headshots, especially newer players who have it hard enough as it is, and so furthers the gap between newbie and vet considerably. And for what? It doesn't sound any more fun to me personally whether you're hitting the head or the body. So in my opinion the idea is more of a step backwards than anything else.

Bowing out of this topic before it becomes a flame war because I can sense theres going to be no contradicting you on this one.

darktimes
21st April 2008, 17:08
long post..

just keep it as it is. the problems arent worth it...


there are more ways to make triple slashing not worse.

allright: who have played hidden yesterday?

the game just FEEL FINISHED.

triple slashers are sometimes annoying. but just go crouch and blast him 12 gauge pellets in the face!

there are many points to NOT add different dmage hitboxes.
and the only reason TO add it is to prevent triple slashes.

a idea.

after 2 slashes you need to wait 1.3 seconds before you can slash again.
sounds good?



Got to about page 5 and thought "see bee ay". Anyone thinking that 'fixing' tripleslashing will take frag-whores or whatever the recent buzzword is out of the game is being very naive. These people who play to ruin everyone elses fun by raping them as fast as possible have been there since the word go and will always be there. This is purely because they get their fun a different way to you. The only way to combat this kind of player is to find a server with a decent ping for you and petition for a certain set of rules on their forum or become an admin with a 0-tolerance policy on what you consider to be bad players. It worked for me on Smokey's aeons ago.

*Hidden zaps around the map like superman on crack, killing everyone with PS in 7 seconds*

me : Don't do that again or you'll be kicked. Its no fun for anyone, new players, old players, admins. Find some way to make sure that everyone doesn't hate the game 5 seconds into it or fuck off because this isn't YOUR server.

them usually : haha, rofl, noob, wtf, bbq, you just wish you were me

me : rcon banid [twat]

Problem solved. And I can safely say through all my experience in gaming so far - its the ONLY way to solve this particular problem. Luckily the hidden community is a good, old-school community where the people considered to be worth listening to tend to not be the 12 year olds who fly around the map raping people and being twats over the mic. I think its in part due to the devs giving twats a stone wall response on the forum and in another part due to how hard we all know the mod is at first and how easy it is once you know what you're doing. Theres a degree of maturity in the euro hidden community (can't speak for the US) that I miss like hell now that I play xbox more than PC games. THAT is the only thing that will help you through the shitstorm of bad players that you get with every online game.

The changes in B5 are about as exhaustive as I would hope and imagine the devs going on gimping aspects of the game that the pwninators love because I think that they and the testers are wary of the mod becoming "The Sims - Invisible Edition". Taking weapons out and taking the piss with regards to damage reduction just seems like a step backwards after all the balancing thats gone into the current setup.

Having said all this, the damage based on how much stamina you have left sounds really interesting, if only because it will help the better hiddens not have to limit themselves so cackhandedly so often without crippling the newer players. Number crunching and discussion on that point seems more worthwhile than talking about how crap it is to be tripleslashed over and over or about how shit it is to lose because of lag. These are factors of online game play and they're here to stay.

from the first thread

MrBone
21st April 2008, 17:22
Could you please stop the E-Penis thing and post something readable and informative?

We're all looking for game balance. Move forwards.

darktimes
22nd April 2008, 18:32
do you mean me?
im not trying being a E-penis.. 0.o

i suggest, that the game stay the same as it is, and help the noobs instead of break the game for them.