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Geheme
16th October 2007, 10:45
First, i d like to say you ve done a great mod and it's pretty hard to reach such a level of entertainment with a mod.

My little tough:

For Hidden
-more graphical/control effect when hit. I am always surprise to see my health is at 10 and I ve fell nothing during the previous firefight.
-It's pretty hard to make physkill, hit someone with a crate and loose only 10 percent of health is unfair.

For IRIS
-bug: when the Hidden is killed by the FN303, the icon in the upper left corner show the weapon in the hand at the death not the FN303.
-Sometimes, it's not possible to put the sonic alarm when the player has kept it in his hands for to long.
-Using ESCAPE key should close the menu (soldier selection)
-Adding FN Self-Loading Police Shotgun (SLP).Semiauto is quite hard to control during the shot and could balance the firefight between the Hidden and the Remington.
-Smoke grenade to spot the Hidden
-Acid grenade
-More radio sentences: cover me, watch my back, need backup, stick together, squad regroup...
-Maybe buttstock

Daedalus
16th October 2007, 11:11
First, i d like to say you ve done a great mod and it's pretty hard to reach such a level of entertainment with a mod.

My little tough:

For Hidden
-more graphical/control effect when hit. I am always surprise to see my health is at 10 and I ve fell nothing during the previous firefight.
-It's pretty hard to make physkill, hit someone with a crate and loose only 10 percent of health is unfair.

-It's going to be in beta 5. When you drop under 20 health you'll go into rage mode and be able to pigstick.
-Physkills are made to be like that. They're hard to master, but once you get the flicking down you'll have tons of fun.

Now the IRIS suggestions...the first two are bugs, but the others won't happen. Stickies say that IRIS won't have any new nades/weapons/melee attacks.

starstriker1
16th October 2007, 14:38
My personal opinion is that the mach speed throws you get from flicking the mouse around are an exploit. Rarely does it present a problem to anything but immersion, but when you get someone who's too practised at it, it results in insta-gibs from long range. Not good. To be honest, flicking it as such isn't a problem by itself... it just needs a speed cap.

Picking up and throwing objects is meant as a tool to distract IRIS, shield yourself, or a weak attack, not as a primary weapon.

-SM-SUCKER
16th October 2007, 15:15
... it just needs a speed cap.
If you were German I would call you a Spielverderber! But there is truth in what you say never the less.

Hannibal
16th October 2007, 15:26
not as a primary weapon.

ooooooh, I can't disagree more than I am doing now. PHYSKILLS ONLY FTW!

Paegus
16th October 2007, 15:42
tbh i'd be quite happy with not so much a speed cap as just a damage one. 500 is insane. 100 is a bloody ranged pigstick with the bonus of leaving a corpse to feed from. 50~75dmg tops would be ideal.

rescale it to say 1, 2, 5, 10, 20 and 50 instead of 5, 10, 20, 50, 100 and 500 so it's still fun to do but your average player still has a chance in hell vs the various lords of the phys that have emerged.

starstriker1
16th October 2007, 15:55
I'm not sure. It's tough to say precisely what values would be best tweaked. After all, the 10 damage from a static throw is pretty fair, so universally scaling the values isn't that good an idea.

I wonder... is the damage calculated based on Kinetic energy, or momentum? I'd think that the best course of action would be to limit those values at the moment of release.

TheChrist
16th October 2007, 16:27
I don't find that Phys kills are too much trouble to deal with...

Even when people do it, it adds some intensity to the game, which I find hard to get...

I think that doing something like 500 damage with phys should gib or bruise the IRIS, making feeding less effective.

Daedalus
16th October 2007, 16:28
I think that doing something like 500 damage with phys should gib or bruise the IRIS, making feeding less effective.

It already does. ;)

TheChrist
16th October 2007, 16:32
It already does. ;)

well then...

Gib it from high damage phys kills (as in, if they did 75 in 1 hit, and then 25, it should get gibbed).

Boat Builder
16th October 2007, 18:15
well then...

Gib it from high damage phys kills (as in, if they did 75 in 1 hit, and then 25, it should get gibbed).

Unless the attack is doing 500, i just don't think it would look right :D

A barrel is lobbed into some guy, and he explodes?



-Using ESCAPE key should close the menu (soldier selection)

I agree with that one there.

Cheesey
16th October 2007, 19:43
A car crashes into a house and explodes.... ;)

Paegus
16th October 2007, 19:56
what about the 100dmg hits though? they're a lot more common than the 500dmg gibtacular hits but have the added bonuses of a feedable corpse and a one being a hit kill. the point of the pigstick gibbing is to give the hidden a functional reason not to i figured so perhaps that should remain true. though chances are if the hidden is good enough to 100dmg consistently then they'll be able to do their business without much need to feed anyway.

Ging
16th October 2007, 19:58
I wonder... is the damage calculated based on Kinetic energy, or momentum? I'd think that the best course of action would be to limit those values at the moment of release.

All the physics damage info is calculated in CalculatePhysicsImpactDamage which is around line 249 of physics_impact_damage.cpp - it's an arse to debug through though as the function that calls it is the prop_physics VPhysics collision function, so every single prop_physics entity calls that every frame - otherwise I'd be able to give you a bit more information.

Isolation
16th October 2007, 20:53
My personal opinion is that the mach speed throws you get from flicking the mouse around are an exploit. Rarely does it present a problem to anything but immersion, but when you get someone who's too practised at it, it results in insta-gibs from long range. Not good. To be honest, flicking it as such isn't a problem by itself... it just needs a speed cap.


This is where I say "Amen!". I like the old school phys attacks (simple tosses dropping health, the occasional 100). Miasmic and I try to have a few rounds of that when possible. But this insta-kill barrel spam is almost no different than having a PS on server.

Hopefully you guys (Ging/Star/Miasmic) can find some proper solution (please?).

Boat Builder
16th October 2007, 21:13
This is where I say "Amen!". I like the old school phys attacks (simple tosses dropping health, the occasional 100). Miasmic and I try to have a few rounds of that when possible. But this insta-kill barrel spam is almost no different than having a PS on server.

Hopefully you guys (Ging/Star/Miasmic) can find some proper solution (please?).

Are you saying it's not actually supposed to work that way?

The easiest "solution" would just be to make the use object junk work exactly the same as in hl2 wouldn't it? I mean... you can't really flick stuff in that game.

I suppose you could almost equate a very skilled phys-using player with a newbie using ps. But no way in hell is a skilled physdoctor the same as a hypothetical skilled ps user.

EDIT: I'd see nothing wrong with a maximum amount of like 50 or 75 damage per hit, since being one hitted before you even know he's there isn't fun, but a very powerful attack fits the hidden strength. ;)

Demented
16th October 2007, 21:23
Are you saying it's not actually supposed to work that way?

It was originally intended just to be used to bop IRIS on the head with tin cans for immersion.

Ging
16th October 2007, 21:30
Gibbage from phys hits is certainly an emergent event - it was in no way intended to do such damage when we first thought it up (or even once we implemented it).

I was aware of the flick method, I may have been the first to come up with it - but others have certainly taken it well beyond what I thought was possible with it!

-SM-SUCKER
16th October 2007, 21:45
If a little group of marines passes by and the frontman is crushed under a barrel out of nowhere then I call that immersive.

This is where I see the problem:
On the one side we have the ranged pigsticker wich can kill at very long distances (an XBOX can fly from the loading bay to IRIS spawn in Stalkyard and do 100 damage).
On the other side we have another way for an experienced Hidden to freak out other players.

Let's face it, most players who manage to use physics like a pigstick will most likely also be able to slash them to death without beeing wounded badly.

I would keep the damage dealt the way it is, maybe cut out the 100 so that a one hit kill will smash the victim to keep it special :)

Ging
16th October 2007, 22:12
We're going to look at tweaking phys based damage - we'll see what the hiddenites think in testing sessions once the changes are made.

Genre
16th October 2007, 22:36
Honestly, I think that physkills are, for the most part, difficult to master, and that they can be useful. It's nice to be able to gib a camper in the case of nadelimits or foolish misses. Often someone able to flick is experienced and can certainly eliminate the IRIS with slashing. This is a more challenging alternative. Phys'ing is a great way to freak out some players, at any experience level. There's nothing more disconcerting than seeing a crate gib a teammate, knowing that you could be next. I agree that 100dmg should be removed, and that 500dmg should stay, as long as the body continues to be gibbed. If you're going to phys that hard, you should have a minor penalty for it. It's just a matter of balance imo.

Isolation
16th October 2007, 22:45
Often someone able to flick is experienced and can certainly eliminate the IRIS with slashing. This is a more challenging alternative.

Really? Killing someone in one hit with relative ease is challenging? Seriously, I've seen players who ONLY phys killed/gibbed an entire team. That's fun for the Hidden, not for the IRIS players.

(I could have sworn we, the forum, have already had this conversation before...)

Anywho, I'd think removing both 100's and 500's would bring back the phys attack to it's original intention...

Genre
16th October 2007, 22:47
Really? Killing someone in one hit with relative ease is challenging? Seriously, I've seen players who ONLY phys killed/gibbed an entire team. That's fun for the Hidden, not for the IRIS players.

(I could have sworn we, the forum, have already had this conversation before...)

Well, I still find it a challenge to phys. I guess when you've been doing it as long as you have it comes just as naturally as pouncing.

Isolation
16th October 2007, 22:52
Well, I still find it a challenge to phys. I guess when you've been doing it as long as you have it comes just as naturally as pouncing.

I usually only use "proper phys", getting people low and then bring out the Xbox/crate/frying pan/tire/propane tank. Only exception to that is on Decay, with that damn lamp (even then, those kills feel a bit dirty).

MiasmicAnomie
16th October 2007, 23:07
Often someone able to flick is experienced and can certainly eliminate the IRIS with slashing. This is a more challenging alternative.

By that logic, not being able to one-hit phys at all would be yet more challenging.

Elbig
16th October 2007, 23:30
I'm all up in reducing the damage of physics :) Sometimes I just throw a barrel to someone and it one hit kill him and all I wanted was to scare him :(

ProgrammedToConsume
17th October 2007, 00:46
The ideal use of physics props:

1. Freaking them out.
2. More challenging kill.
3. Way to get their health down a small amount from a distance.

You're saying that if they phys gib the IRIS then they could just triple-slash consistently anyway. I'd personally rather be slashed thrice and have a small chance of killing the hidden than take high speed barrel to the ass and die in one hit.

Paegus
17th October 2007, 06:13
I suppose you could almost equate a very skilled phys-using player with a newbie using ps. But no way in hell is a skilled physdoctor the same as a hypothetical skilled ps user.
yeah the skilled physdoctor is a skilled ps user who doesn't even have to get up close and personal of worry about a warm up sound giving him away to that nasty shotgunner

we'll have to see how the 75dmg cap plays out. though is it just an 'if damage > 75 then damage = 75' hard capped hits so they supplant the 100 and 500dmg throws or have they been scaled at all?

Hannibal
17th October 2007, 06:47
I've read this thread three times now and I just wonder...what's the problem?
some people think a 100dmg or 500dmg physkill is like a pigstick, and that we shall remove the body from the 100dmg physkills. That will destroy everything I been working for, to help people get better on physkills. Everybody must agree that it's more fun to see a guy (maybe you) get killed by a physkill in 1 hit than getting pigsticked or sliced 3 times (brrr). That will make you think "hmmm... maybe I should get that good on physkills to" I just say: do Not change anything about the physkilling part, if you do this game will get so much more boring...

You can't understand how happy I feel when I make the perfect physkilling round...

TheChrist
17th October 2007, 06:58
yeah the skilled physdoctor is a skilled ps user who doesn't even have to get up close and personal of worry about a warm up sound giving him away to that nasty shotgunner

we'll have to see how the 75dmg cap plays out. though is it just an 'if damage > 75 then damage = 75' hard capped hits so they supplant the 100 and 500dmg throws or have they been scaled at all?

I'll assume that disincludes fall damage?

Since, just the other day, I accidently pounced the second I spawned (well, I pounced, the milisecond I spawned and...) I was thrown off the roof on Highrise...

looked in the console to see the fall damage to 499 damage.

Ging
17th October 2007, 08:57
That's not fall damage - 617 doesn't receive fall damage, you died on highrise due to the kill box in place to ensure that a hidden player who goes over the edge does actually die if they get to the "floor" of the map.

-SM-SUCKER
17th October 2007, 09:53
Everybody must agree that it's more fun to see a guy (maybe you) get killed by a physkill in 1 hit than getting pigsticked or sliced 3 times (brrr). That will make you think "hmmm... maybe I should get that good on physkills to"
Wouldn't it be cooler to have reactions like :"Oh shit, OH SHIT! I will better run around like a mad chicken or find cover somewhere and crouch in that corner for the rest of the round."
Btw, usually you cannot see the difference in multi hit kills and one hit kills. And what about the guy who got slain out of nowhere? The main intent of removing the PS was to give people more time before they die. With the ranged PS they don't get this time. And then they get frustrated because they don't know why they died and leave the mod.

Hannibal
17th October 2007, 10:02
And then they get frustrated because they don't know why they died and leave the mod.

hehe, I don't really physkill people in their back so often, sometimes I do it from the side (specially on stalkyard with the pallet), but then they see wood smashing and mostly other people see when I physkill them. but come on, you also do it, I know you grab the pallet on stalkyard outside and physkill people coming around the corner (thanks for learning me that btw...).

-SM-SUCKER
17th October 2007, 10:36
I stopped doing that a long time ago. Nowadazs I smash the pallet right infront of them on the floor.

Ging
17th October 2007, 11:06
(thanks for learning me that btw...).

Impromptu english lesson:

He taught you that - so it should be "thanks for teaching me that" or "I learnt that from you"

No, this isn't sarcastic nor a dig, just pointing something out.

Hannibal
17th October 2007, 12:11
oh, surely I've told you guys that I am stupid, crazy, intense and often say/write without thinking.
don't worry, I get help from doctors about it...at least that's what they think!! huahehehuhuhaa..

Paegus
17th October 2007, 12:26
That's not fall damage - 617 doesn't receive fall damage, you died on highrise due to the kill box in place to ensure that a hidden player who goes over the edge does actually die if they get to the "floor" of the map.

though he does raise the point that it's not impossible to suicide by jumping on phys props incorrectly. i suppose that will be subject to the same limitation? it's not a bad thing mind you... its amusing the 1st 10 times but then it just gets annoying. what i'm mainly getting at is: does being crushed by a certain shipping crate still gib you?

if so then i think this may not solved certain types of top down kills that usually instagib but are logged as "world" kills.

MiasmicAnomie
17th October 2007, 16:13
That will destroy everything I been working for, to help people get better on physkills. Everybody must agree that it's more fun to see a guy (maybe you) get killed by a physkill in 1 hit than getting pigsticked or sliced 3 times (brrr).

Yeah, because getting killed in one hit is so much fun in *any* game.

Boat Builder
17th October 2007, 17:10
You can't understand how happy I feel when I make the perfect physkilling round... .

Well, i think it should be reduced just enough so that the iris would have to take one slash, quite a bit of fall damage, or a another phys hit to be "one-hitted" (although it wouldn't really be one hit then i suppose).

Just like how the intensity when at low health late in the round is a good thing, but the intensity caused by a potential pigstick right at the start of the round is a bad thing.
Nobody enjoys being smashed as they come around the corner out of the spawn, but after having a bit of contact with the hidden, you should have to watch out for a very powerful attack from a skilled player.

But really, no matter how good you can get at phys, it'll still be easier to just slash everybody... so it's just a more challenging kill. (although i cannot speak for hannibal, i don't know if he's so good at physing he finds it easier than slashing or not.)

I don't really mind if it gets changed a lot or stays the same, but i'd rather you guys err on the side of keeping it around.

EDIT: I see you guys are gonna be testing changes to the max phys damage. Good on you people about being so fast with this sort of thing. (although it is mostly testers discussing it in here, i still think it's good that you guys are nicely in touch with the community)

starstriker1
17th October 2007, 23:54
I love how people somehow manage to equate pigsticks with slashes.

-SM-SUCKER
18th October 2007, 00:02
But really, no matter how good you can get at phys, it'll still be easier to just slash everybody... so it's just a more challenging kill. (although i cannot speak for hannibal, i don't know if he's so good at physing he finds it easier than slashing or not.)
It's not easier, but SAFER because you can stay out of range, even flick things while standing behind some cover not even exposing yourself and still be able to kill.

Boat Builder
18th October 2007, 00:20
I love how people somehow manage to equate pigsticks with slashes.

If you mean me, my post was actually speaking of pigstick and physkills... at least it was supposed to. (and more specifically, that it's not fun to be killed in one hit at the start of a round, but i find it acceptable if you have already had some contact with the hidden, and are on full alert. Just as PS is being fixed up for b5.)

But i'm sure you can see how people can think of ps/slash as being in a differant principle than physkills... i mean, just because they both use the knife. :rolleyes:


It's not easier, but SAFER because you can stay out of range, even flick things while standing behind some cover not even exposing yourself and still be able to kill.

Yeah, it can be an easy little scare tactic to use whenever you like with little or no risk.

Hannibal
18th October 2007, 13:01
one more thing...to make a 100dmg or 500dmg physkill will always be hard to learn, even if you have me as teacher. Sure you can be lucky sometimes, but I'm talking about being able to make a 100/500dmg kill whenever you want to. You must spend a Lot of time to get really good on it and to be able to master the physkills in this game and really, you must be crazy to even care to get that good on it.

There will always be a few people who is the best of the best in games, let's leave it that way...

starstriker1
18th October 2007, 20:31
A broken mechanic is a broken mechanic, no matter how much skill or practise is required to pull it off.

Isolation
18th October 2007, 21:02
Sure, the insta-kills take skill, that's granted... but that means phys killing WITHOUT the one hits is more skillful, right? Just in the same way that the slash kills take more ability than the PS did. Hit and run, quick pouncy pouncy and not dying.

Boat Builder
18th October 2007, 23:48
It'd probably just take two extremely powerful hits instead of one hannibal.

Like iso said, more skill would be involved.

And the more skill involved, the more the skilled players (that's you i'm talking about there) can distance themselves from the unskilled, in terms of skill. Seems to me that would be a cause for celebration on your end. :p

PS. Yes, i meant to say skill that many times. Skill.

TheOtherDante
19th October 2007, 00:13
who needs skill when everyone is magnetically attracted to you.

at first i played the game to get good but now I'm meeting cool people and just enjoying playing and having fun. however the more i play the better i get so i just confused myself:(.

Isolation
19th October 2007, 01:58
however the more i play the better i get so i just confused myself:(.

No, that makes sense. I used to play for the sake of "kicking ass", but now I try and make it my version of pub time. Goofing around with the people that have become friends is probably the best way to play the mod.

Boat Builder
19th October 2007, 02:14
Totally. Playing super competitively is just too frustrating.


however the more i play the better i get so i just confused myself:(.

Certainly a confusing concept. :p

-Silєηt-
27th October 2007, 21:02
For IRIS
-Smoke grenade to spot the Hidden
-Acid grenade
-More radio sentences: cover me, watch my back, need backup, stick together, squad regroup...


im liking these :D

starstriker1
28th October 2007, 20:31
Too bad the first two are expressly ruled out in the stickies.

Demented
28th October 2007, 20:41
The second one is only a great loss if it would have been using Source's new particle effects. Not that I recall a moment when the particle effects were actually used in ep2...

TheOtherDante
28th October 2007, 21:52
particle effects in source would mean that we would finally have realistic water.

off topic:
i think crysis has real particle effects and realistic water i think remember a scene in the trailer where the side of the ship rips and water comes gushing in a flooding the place (even if it was a scripted event it looked awesome).

Ging
28th October 2007, 23:04
particle effects in source would mean that we would finally have realistic water.

Buh?

There are particle effects in source... the health aura round the iris is a particle effect, as are explosions and the flames.

I suspect you may want to check what you actually mean by "particle effect".

starstriker1
29th October 2007, 00:56
The second one is only a great loss if it would have been using Source's new particle effects. Not that I recall a moment when the particle effects were actually used in ep2...

Look closely, they're everywhere. The place where I noticed them the most was with the blood sprays and the bleeding on the ant lion guards.

From what I understand, the new particle system is mostly a better system for the artists as opposed to a flashier particle system, which lets them make lightweight particles systems or incredibly complicated ones from the same building blocks.

Ging
29th October 2007, 01:01
Look closely, they're everywhere. The place where I noticed them the most was with the blood sprays and the bleeding on the ant lion guards.

They're also all over the shop in TF2 and portal.

Demented
29th October 2007, 01:53
Look closely, they're everywhere. The place where I noticed them the most was with the blood sprays and the bleeding on the ant lion guards.

The guard's bleeding, the waterfall, the spy's cigarette smoke in TF2, a few sparkle and dust effects...
Though the blood sprays didn't look like they needed more than an animated sprite.

starstriker1
29th October 2007, 04:53
I don't know what they did with the blood effects, but they make the weapon impacts feel MUCH stronger. The shotgun really feels like it's doing damage now!

Demented
29th October 2007, 05:06
Well, before you couldn't see the impacts, it only applied decals. I think the antlions were the only critters that had hit effects. Though it didn't worry me so much since the shotgun generally killed most human-size things in one hit at point-blank-range.

TheOtherDante
29th October 2007, 13:16
I suspect you may want to check what you actually mean by "particle effect".

sorry i was thinking about something else in that cause i've seen alot of the particle effect improvements in HL2.

MantraSlider00eD
7th November 2007, 03:17
The acid pipe bomb seems like a good idea or maybe a fire grenade. You could use them like the slash/pigstick and make the fire bomb take longer to throw and maybe have a sound or something to alert the IRIS. It could do less damage but make the IRIS unable to see and move slower for longer.

Hannibal
7th November 2007, 05:17
The acid pipe bomb seems like a good idea or maybe a fire grenade. You could use them like the slash/pigstick and make the fire bomb take longer to throw and maybe have a sound or something to alert the IRIS. It could do less damage but make the IRIS unable to see and move slower for longer.

pick 1:

we just drop it...
or we make them, but it only works when throwing them at you.