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Demented
21st June 2007, 21:37
Three Ideas
Having had a dream about Hidden:Source... even though I've not played it in months... I came up with a few ideas to address certain gameplay issues. Or rather, make new ones.

Four Slash Kills
"AGghh!! Leave me alone! LEAVE ME ALONE!"
Old idea, but one I still like. Simply reduced slash damage so that you can dice up the IRIS more... Along with a reduced firing delay, so they die in roughly the same time. This is mainly just because I want to torment the IRIS further, and three slashes per just isn't enough with small player counts.

Low Profile Running
"So I was walking into the room, thinking it was empty, when I saw movement in the corner of my eye. Realizing he'd been caught, the guy stood straight up and ran at me, arms flailing. I would've been scared out of my wits if it wasn't so damn funny!"
For being such a predatorial character, the Hidden isn't very... predatorial. He runs around with the same stance that counterstrike players do, only with less of a hunch. Is that supposed to be scary? It also gets people killed. New proposal: The Hidden rounds around in a crouched state. Not FULLY crouched, but enough to look like he's actually ducking, rather than just a hunchback. Not only is it a better hunting stance, but the lower profile means less bullets hitting your noggin, and it looks better (not that you can see him very easily, but every subtle bit helps), in addition to not feeling so damn vulnerable while you're running. Of course, this wouldn't matter much to the veteran players who spend all their time crouching and pouncing anyway... But newbies and less pounce-happy players would appreciate it, as would those who make the mistake of spending all their stamina and being left with no option but running for cover. And it could train newer IRIS to aim their sights lower, as well.

Stamina Armor
"No human has a right to be shot that many times and live."
For some reason, I figured the Hidden needed a little more durability, (What!?) but a kind that scales situationally. In this case, I'm thinking of damage reduction based on stamina. That is, the Hidden takes less damage if he has stamina over a certain amount. Perhaps, the Hidden takes up to 25% damage less as his stamina is over 2/3rd. That could allow Hiddens that aren't already fully mobile to survive a first strike from the IRIS, hopefully reducing frustration at instant death, or just making the slower attack style a more viable alternative.

Paegus
21st June 2007, 22:26
quad damage
not hard to produce server-side i believe.
/checks
poo only guns let you do that.

might be fun to try though i personally would lose no sleep over keeping the current cooldown. though it doesn't have to be perfectly scaled to 4 strikes either. 30hp/hit would leave them with 10 which is just about perfect. wink wink, nudge nudge, know what i mean?


low rider
in a realistic sense, how easy is it to be like that constantly? there's also the learning curve to worry about. bad hiddens don't crouch. bad hiddens die a lot. personally i like a the little things that add up the minor advantages. it also lets you 'dumb down' your play if you feel the need by simply not crouching while going about your business to give other players a chance.


regenerative shielding
well given the lack of hit location damage making 3 headshots from an f2k no worse than 3 toe hits... but i fear it'll promote the hit once and camp mentality that gets a bit boring when taken to extremes. not that health and stamina shouldn't be intertwined somehow though. logically the lower your health the lower the max stamina and so on.

though my main objection is 'how much damage will getting hit by his f2k do to me once i've pounced in, attacked and am pouncing out and getting lag-capped?' if it's a sliding scale it becomes that much more ambiguous.

starstriker1
21st June 2007, 23:35
1) That'd really hurt hit and run players and emphasize the "slash spam" behaviour that's been getting people worked up lately.

2) It WOULD be very nice if the hidden got custom animations, but I don't see it happening thanks to the HUGE work involved to make them convincing, even on a blurry, barely seen character. Custom slash animations, though, might be nice... actually make the hidden make a MOVEMENT when he attacks...

3) This one bears some discussion! I'd prefer it as a more intuitive and less exploitable sliding scale with full stamina blocking something like 20-30% of the incoming damage and 0 stamina (or some higher threshold, if necessary) blocking none. It would go a long way towards make the hidden more tactical and less absurdly aggressive... so long as the IRIS weapons went up to compensate. It'd slow the game pace down... that may be a good thing, but too much of a good thing can be a bad thing.

Demented
22nd June 2007, 00:08
Paegus:
30hp/hit would leave them with 10 which is just about perfect. wink wink, nudge nudge, know what i mean?
Oh, absolutely.
On the subject of the crouch-running: It's not that painful at all to run around crouched. Just need to get your knees used to it and strengthen all the right muscle groups.


Paegus:
though my main objection is 'how much damage will getting hit by his f2k do to me once i've pounced in, attacked and am pouncing out and getting lag-capped?' if it's a sliding scale it becomes that much more ambiguous.
To the math!
Assuming the original idea:
Between 0-66% stamina, you take full damage.
Between 67-100% stamina, you take
X * (1 - (S - 67 / 33 * 0.25)) Where X is the initial damage, and S is the percent of your stamina remaining (67-100)

If for some reason you wanted the stamina to be divided exactly at the 2/3 mark instead of at 67%, the math is:
X * (1 - (3S / 200 - 1 * 0.5)) Where S is the percent of your stamina remaining (66.6-100) Does that answer your question? No? Fine. :p
In english: Unless you're making an effort to stay above 66% stamina, you'll always take full damage... And if you're doing hit&run pouncing, it's pretty much guaranteed that you're not above 66% when you're getting shot.


Starstriker1:
That'd really hurt hit and run players and emphasize the "slash spam" behaviour that's been getting people worked up lately.
I have this idea that, the more you get hit, the more indicators you have of where the Hidden is and the more dangerous quadruple-slashing is.
It's a farce of a lie, but I can dream. =/
Not to mention complete murder against the institution of sentence structure.

Red
22nd June 2007, 01:45
What, actualy good ideas... WHAT? :eek:

Isolation
22nd June 2007, 01:57
Love them all. The altered slash damage would be yummy fun, and the idea of stamina acting as a damage reducer the higher it is... damn nice.

Night Raider
22nd June 2007, 02:03
The only one I don't like is the four-slash kill. If you want to torment the IRIS then use taunts, punting, or object flinging. The game's been designed with the three slash = kills mindset from the beginning, and quite frankly I'd prefer if it'd stayed that way. But I love the other ones, it'd be great to 'see' custom animations for the hidden, and the stamina armor sounds like a nice change of pace.

Combat Wombat
22nd June 2007, 03:30
I don't like the 4 slash kill idea, there are plenty of ways to mess with the iris already and it would make things alot harder for people who are still learning or who aren't very good hiddens, like me.

I don't like the hidden stance idea either. If a player wants to crouch he can go ahead and crouch if he doesn't know that he should crouch or doesn't want to he can stay in the ordinary position. It just seems like a lot of work for nothing to start changing the stance.

The stamina armor is an interesting idea and could be cool if done well IMO.

Red
22nd June 2007, 05:33
Four hit kill sounds nice... but are you talking about increasing slash speed when you say decrease delay? Because then you could turn 4 into baisically a two-hit kill to those who just want to win.

I'm definately all for the Hidden taking a more predatory posture. I've never really been scared in the game (felt like I was on a mixture, two parts crack, ten parts adrenaline maybe), and maybe I would be frightened if I didn't see the Hidden walk by a fence and think, "Did an invisible 1337 crew T just mosey on by me?"

Demented
22nd June 2007, 07:26
Well, I figured that you'd need to increase the rate of attacks in order to kill the IRIS in the same amount of time, if you needed to slash more often. Though, there'd be nothing wrong in keeping the attack rate the same, if you wanted to discourage slash-whoring... >=)

(In this case, slash-whoring refers to triple-slashing or quadruple-slashing someone to death.)


@Combat Wombat
I wasn't referring to the Hidden always crouching wherever he goes, if that's what you meant.

Daedalus
22nd June 2007, 07:52
I wouldn't mind four slashes for a kill, heck I'd even like it since you can get the IRIS at a lower hp without killing them so you can physkill them.

But I do think this idea was rejected at some point...

-SM-SUCKER
22nd June 2007, 08:36
I don't think messing with the slash damage will do any good. 4 attacks and an increased rate of slashes will NOT encourage hit and run. And if you are trying physkilling you will probably also be able to smash him with 26hp.

The lower stance might look more apropiate but when will anyone notice? More likely they will come here stating that the Hiddens visiblity changed again! :)

I DO like the stamina shield idea. But it has the great drawback that it might slow down gameplay as people will have another reason to wait until they have full stamina again.
But what about giving the Hidden more stamina when on lower health, like he gets desperate and doesnt want to die.

Daedalus
22nd June 2007, 09:17
But what about giving the Hidden more stamina when on lower health, like he gets desperate and doesnt want to die.

DO WANT.

Boat Builder
22nd June 2007, 15:01
My meager opinions:

1) I think i've already said this... i'm having a deja vu type of moment. But i think this would make physkills less impressive, and also hurt the hit-and-run play style ever so slightly. Cuz every time you move in to attack, there's that chance that you'll get a shotty blast to the face. 1 more attack on each player is not exactly a small order.

2) Yeah, i notice while dead that the hidden moves rather... robotic and odd. But i never notice this while alive... i think because when i see the hidden i'm too busy happily shooting away.

3) I think this idea is nifty. Although if a hidden gets caught with his pants down, he probably deserves whatever he gets. But this would probably open up more styles of... hidding.

Isolation
22nd June 2007, 19:27
DO WANT.

Adrenaline, 617 style.

starstriker1
23rd June 2007, 02:56
Oh, THATS interesting.

So, now we've got two ideas:

1) The more stamina you have, the more damage you can take
2) The more damage you take, the more stamina you can have

Either one of those is interesting...

Ion
23rd June 2007, 06:41
I think these are all good ideas. I think that this forum needs more good ideas. I'm getting a little tired of, "Make a female hidden that's faster" and "Make surveillance a real class" type suggestions.

-SM-SUCKER
23rd June 2007, 09:45
...
1) lets him live longer
2) lets him die longer

Euphoria
23rd June 2007, 14:39
2) lets him die longer

Sry but wats that supposed to mean? :p .

Paegus
23rd June 2007, 15:52
it means it takes him longer to die...

Demented
23rd June 2007, 20:19
It's something like a glass half full of a water, and a glass of water half empty.
Except, different.

The water analogy would be more appropriate if the suggestion was that your pounces were stronger if you had less health. Or stamina. Or more... less... something like that. Arg!