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blackhawk
30th April 2007, 02:13
idk but it would be pretty cool if he diddent just use the same primary slash the whole time....there should be like an upward one,downward,stab,backhand slash etc. but it stays the normal primary fire button, and all do the same amount of damage..they would just like randomly change as if he was really trying to kill them..

Isolation
30th April 2007, 02:18
Brought up many times before, never no'ed that I know of, but not high on the priority list either...

starstriker1
30th April 2007, 03:47
The current slash animation is pretty awkward anyways. He's not holding the knife correctly...

VoiceOfDecember
30th April 2007, 08:53
Yea that does sound good. After all the vital things are finished with B5 why wouldnt they put new animations in?

Heres another suggestion, you know how you do a fly by slash. Judging by how fast you are going, when you use primary fire the slash animation is looks allot bigger and more violent, not a calm little slash (because I dunno, if i was flying thru the air at massive speeds and I went to take a slash at someone it would be like a baseball swing). I'm not suggesting more damage, its just what you see as the hidden. And yes I am pointing it out because poeple ALWAYS seem to get the wrong idea :(

Demented
30th April 2007, 09:48
The current slash animation is pretty awkward anyways. He's not holding the knife correctly...

Sure he is. If he does the conga with that thing.

Ging
30th April 2007, 11:42
He's not holding the knife correctly...

He's not?

I'm not on the right machine to look, but I seem to recall him holding it like you might hold a knife if you were to be looking to use it to cut people...

Mayhem
30th April 2007, 12:41
He's not?

I'm not on the right machine to look, but I seem to recall him holding it like you might hold a knife if you were to be looking to use it to cut people...

It's just a matter of taste. Hold it the clever way (as it is now) or the dumb way (blade pointing the opposite direction). Imagine yourself pouncing at a box with a high speed, boom, your knife has got stuck to your leg cause you held it the 'cool' a.k.a dumb way.

I like how it is right now. But some new slashing animations would be nice.

starstriker1
30th April 2007, 18:18
A look at Wikipedia is telling me that holding is forward, as it is now, is a correct way to do it, allowing for more range and finesse, while holding it in reverse allows for more power at a shorter range.

From what I've been taught, though, holding it forward is generally a sign that the knife user doesn't know what they're doing. It is very easy to disarm a person holding it like that.

Holding it in reverse (or the "dumb" way, as Mayhem puts it) is supposed to be a sign that the other person knows what they're doing (and hence, get your ass out of there before you get killed). There are a lot of moves you can make from that grip. Any punch, for instance, carries that blade along for the ride...

...I'm not a knife fighter, so I probably jumped the gun a bit when I said it was "wrong". A bit of research has shown me that a lot of styles use a forward grip.

However, since the emphasis on 617 is power, not finesse, it would probably make more sense to be using a reverse grip.

Ging
30th April 2007, 18:43
However, since the emphasis on 617 is power, not finesse, it would probably make more sense to be using a reverse grip.

In terms of finesse vs power - mef, s'not a major issue when it comes down to it, but:


From what I've been taught, though, holding it forward is generally a sign that the knife user doesn't know what they're doing.

I suspect I wouldn't be too concerned with how I was holding the knife if I were 617...

There's also aesthetics - holding it in just about any other form would actually hide the knife behind the forearm.

Daedalus
30th April 2007, 20:24
Different slashing animations would be nice, but it's not something that I'd be worried about right now. It's more of a polishing feature if you know what I mean.

Isolation
30th April 2007, 20:49
There's also aesthetics - holding it in just about any other form would actually hide the knife behind the forearm.

Not if you have 617 hold it in a "stylish" CQB form. Bring up his hands a bit, have him hold it horizontally. Metal Gear Solid 3 (E: and Resident Evil 4, actually. Krauser knife fight) is about the only thing I can thing of to reference this...

Zabiela
30th April 2007, 21:11
Not if you have 617 hold it in a "stylish" CQB form.

If I was a newcomer i'd get the impression the dev team was trying to appear "cool" by using that knife pose. :confused:
I think holding the knife normally like a short sword holds up the "escaped and grabbed a knife on his way out" story.
If any changes are made I think you should make a back and forth slash animation. I dont know if its possible but the animation could depend on how many times you've pressed fire, theres the opening slash, say he swings his arm out to the right, then from there either within a certain timeframe fire is pressed again and it goes into slash 2, he turns his wrist and brings his hand over to his left, OR nothing is pressed and you get a end-of-first-slash anim. Can that be done in source?

Paegus
30th April 2007, 21:51
combo animation? so if he attacks again or rather is still attacking at a certain point in the initial animation it switches to a secondary animation that picks up at that point and continues the attack instead of having the knife return to its usual position? i'd hate to see the fun latency compensation will have with that.

though given the way the knife is being held turning the hand over to continue the attack just seems to me that he's be loosing a lot of potential while runing the risk of buggering him wrist.

Demented
30th April 2007, 22:24
i'd hate to see the fun latency compensation will have with that.

It oughta be worth trying, at least.

Anyway, this remind me of that Steven Seagal movie, Under Siege. Final "battle" had Steven Seagal and Tommy Lee Jones in a knife fight (the good old days, eh?). Steve used knifepoint downwards, Tom used knifepoint upwards.

Not that it really mattered how they used the knife...

Zabiela
30th April 2007, 22:36
It oughta be worth trying, at least.

I mean look at the current animations: they only play about every other slash, and when they do his hand snaps back to idle oddly.

starstriker1
30th April 2007, 22:54
Personally, if the knife animation got an overhaul, I'd be getting away from the really weak looking cut and trying to emphasise the inefficient, powerful, and vicious qualities. No small motions, the arm should LASH out for a slash, with wide swings of the arm and exaggerated movement. Ideally, it'd give the impression of a superhuman wildly swinging the weapon around, relying on natural strength and speed instead of skill.

As mentioned, though, it's definitly a polish thing.

Demented
30th April 2007, 23:29
The current slash anims are too much like the CS:S slashes... which are wussy at best. Though perhaps that's just to make death by knife more humiliating.


I mean look at the current animations: they only play about every other slash, and when they do his hand snaps back to idle oddly.

I'd simply say that's because the timing hasn't been tuned, but what do I know? Nothing!
(Doesn't stop me from being a broken record....)

Ging
1st May 2007, 00:16
I'd simply say that's because the timing hasn't been tuned, but what do I know? Nothing!

S'nothing about the timing - there's something oddly broken with certain types of animation within the SDK (the CSS shotgun that comes with the SDK show's it just as well as ours). I believe it's on valves bug tracker as something to look at, but that's no guarantee of an immediate fix (or even a hint as to how to fix it).

Paegus
1st May 2007, 01:35
...and then even if they DO get around to fixing it you'd need to recompile on their updated code which... well i'll leave that to the imagination.

Ging
1st May 2007, 01:41
well i'll leave that to the imagination.

Indeed... Though, I'm thinking of doing a bit of a code tidy up once B5 is out the door, there's something things that could be done in a much neater fashion that would make future SDK updates less hassle to deal with.

<Beatlemania>
1st May 2007, 05:30
I think new slash animations would be nice, though i agree with Zabiela, the pose sort of holding up the idea of how he just escaped. It should be something added in one of the final versions, i think, because its polish.

Red
1st May 2007, 06:04
The animation does look sort of lazy, like he's only using his elbow. You don't really care when you're in the heat of the moment, so yeah it's a thing to polish.

There are those games that you just walk around and whack things/nothing because the animations are nice and fluid, they almost seem like a combo. (I downloaded this Damascan sword thing for CS off of FPS Banana, slicing people and walls up has never been more fun.)

If I were gonna cut ya, I'd hold the knife pointed forward, almost straight out and on a slight incline, thumb on the back of the blade and trigger finger under. You can easily stab and slice a million different ways, using all your arm. I'd also use my free hand to slap you before I sliced, as an offense and follow up with my knife. Since we're putting in the hidden shove... why not make it..

Left click: shove with left hand
right click: slicey :)

A cool little thing. Perhaps not extremely applicable to the Hidden.

starstriker1
1st May 2007, 06:18
The shove is a charge up move, just like the pigstick, and in fact turns INTO the pigstick given enough damage to the hidden... so you're right, it isn't applicable to the hidden. ;)

Red
1st May 2007, 06:23
Well maybe there should be a liddle shove where you just push 'em a bit. :(

I just wanna cut people. :(

<Beatlemania>
2nd May 2007, 04:22
i wonder if people will just nade themself just enough, and then go around pigsticking nonstop?

starstriker1
2nd May 2007, 06:09
Sure. You can do the required damage with a single nade. But you've got, at BEST, 20 health. Thats good for 2 shots from a p90, pistol or 303, or 1 shot from the f2000 or shotgun.

So, yeah, its a valid strategy, it just isn't very smart. Especially when that nade and 80 health could be put to better use...

Mr. Bottomhat
2nd May 2007, 22:08
I actually like the lazy slash animation, it makes the hidden feel sophisticated and in control. I especially like the effect if you fly just past someone, turn in the air and slash and then continue, feels like a really well times and artful flick of the wrist rather than an attempt to murder.

Sil
3rd May 2007, 13:45
I'd like to see the comboslashing Zab was talking about. No added speed or anything, but it'd look better. left to right, then reverse, e.g. It worked for Dark Messiah, I don't see why it shouldn't work for Hidden-Source.


On a side note, if I were to stab you, I'd keep my knife pointing up along my forearm, and my arm down and out of sight, until I got close and could ram it beneath your ribs and push up. Chances are I'd dodge your ribs and rip your lungs, choking any screams of help and any chances of survival. I'd then pretty much leave you there, watching from a safe distance until I was more or less certain you couldn't get up.

Oh, and I'd grab your wallet and dump it a few meters down the road, without the money in it. Make it look like a robbery.

Boxy
3rd May 2007, 14:04
Oh, and I'd grab your wallet and dump it a few meters down the road, without the money in it. Make it look like a robbery.

Surely by taking his money...? :)

<Beatlemania>
4th May 2007, 02:47
the hidden can't use money, as it would just turn invisible when he held it, like his knife, and no one would take invis-o-money. :p

starstriker1
4th May 2007, 03:01
Its visible once he drops it, though. He could totally pay people off NINJA STYLE.

Gusdor
7th May 2007, 10:55
As far as I am aware, there are slight variation of the primary slash in there (although I may be mistaken - its been a while since I looked at it). They may not be showin for the SDK reasons that Ging mentioned. Fyi, CS doesnt have huge variation in the knife attack and no one bitches about that :P

As for the 'pose' of the existing cycle, the name of the thread gives it away.He is slashing his target, as opposed to stabbing it. Besides, if we didnt have it that way round, the pigsticker cycle would not be as cool! What would you prefer?

Daedalus
7th May 2007, 13:03
As far as I am aware, there are slight variation of the primary slash in there (although I may be mistaken - its been a while since I looked at it). They may not be showin for the SDK reasons that Ging mentioned. Fyi, CS doesnt have huge variation in the knife attack and no one bitches about that :P

Yeah, but in CS the knife is used as a humiliation weapon. It's next to useless while when you're hidden you're staring at it 95% of the time.

Sil
7th May 2007, 19:19
Surely by taking his money...? :)
er... yes. That's the feeling I was going for, aye. :)