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View Full Version : Ammo resupplying



starstriker1
12th April 2007, 00:55
Alright, got ANOTHER idea. Everyone take cover!

Basically: Get rid of the multiple classes. Just leave it to a character selection and the equipment selections. Change the sonic alarm equipment selection to have the three alarms normally given to the supply class (seriously, the SINGLE alarm isn't doing much good).

Now, give EVERYONE the ability to supply ammo by throwing a clip to the ground that anyone may pick up. This turns everyone into a potential ammo supplier. It DOES require an extra key, unfortunately, but the IRIS control scheme is currently simple enough to allow for a little bit more complication.

Additional points:

*Change the magazine models around a bit. Make sure that ALL weapons are using transparent magazines (as the p90 is supposed to have anyways), and have two textures: a "full" texture for the magazine, which can be picked up by ANYONE as a full magazine for their primary weapon, and empty ones that are dropped as people reload (as it is now).

*If the system was kept this simple, pistol magazines would have to be limited by either 1) only resupplying other secondary weapons 2) Not being throwable at all or 3) having less pistol magazines. I'm in favour of 3, as the 1 provides more possibility for confusion between ammunition types and 2 makes players ask "well, why not?"
-Another side effect is that the 303 user, who has more magazines, is better at supplying ammo than other users
-The more complicated version would limit magazine ammunition to only the weapon it was originally designed for. Despite the additional realism, I don't like this as it limits the IRISs capability to actually help each other in a fight, and it also adds to the potential for confusion between different types of magazines.

*Death would mean that all ammunition not loaded into your weapon would be dropped to the ground for others to pick up. This'd also mean that if a dead body wasn't covered, the hidden would grab all the ammo and stuff it somewhere it isn't useful.

*This would be a plentiful source of ammunition compared to the current walk over the weapon model (which disappears quickly anyways), and might require rebalancing the starting number of magazines to compensate

*All players would need to be able to tell how their teammates are doing for ammo

*Shotgunners would drop a box of 8 shells each time... or whatever would be considered the equivalent to a single magazine of ammo for another weapon.

Thoughts?

Paegus
12th April 2007, 01:52
are you throwing one of YOUR magazines? as in your ammo counter says you have 2, you hit 'drop' and now you have 1 spare?

if not why the heck not? i'm carrying around an extra mag i can't use myself? no fair. is so, sod you mate he's a pouncy bastard so i'm keeping all the ammo i can.

it's simpler for gameplay purposes but having it be some magical omni-magazine makes no practical sense. it implies that you're carrying one of every type of magazine. and if we're going down that road i feel we should be able to pick up dropped weapons.

starstriker1
12th April 2007, 01:56
I'm not saying that, I'm saying you drop one of your magazines for your primary weapon for someone else to use in THEIR primary weapon. Yes, its an oversimplification, but the additional effect on teamwork would definitly be worth it.

Another thought:
Could the IRIS pick up ammo BEYOND what the initial loadout gives them? That is, if they come across a dead body can they make use of all the dead man's magazines, or at least a fair number of them? To compensate, could move speed be affected by the amount of ammo carried?

Paegus
12th April 2007, 02:03
because i want to worry about being TKed for my spare ammo?
yeah it wont happen often but it will happen.

starstriker1
12th April 2007, 02:12
Thats an easy fix. Either don't have tked people drop ammo, or just don't allow the person who made the tk to pick it up (The project reality mod does something similar... if you kill a teammate and try to pick up their kit, the game auto slays you)

Paegus, come on man. Less cynicism, more keeping a discussion going! :P

Demented
12th April 2007, 05:00
Restricting it to pistol ammo seems better. Even better than that if you can make it so that the ammo transfer requires as little effort for the players as possible.

I.e.
If you use the last magazine for your pistol, you can 'use' another player to gain another magazine. Possibly repeat ad infinitum.

Alternately:
Allow players the ability to pick up dead player's weapons+ammo, AND keep their own. Additional weapons would be stored in the same bucket, Half-Life style. (Boo'yah, FN303 w/ Shotgun! Here kitty kitty kitty!) It actually worked pretty well in AA, and was especially fun to run around Rambo-style, carrying all the weapons of your fallen comrades. Though, the ROE system was somewhat more effective for preventing 'practical' TKing.

TKers:
Weapons dropped by dead players would have a field listing their original owner, so that the game could prevent TKers from benefitting. Otherwise, TKers could be prevented from picking up any new weapons/ammo at all.

starstriker1
12th April 2007, 05:21
What I'm envisioning is a system where the more stingy players can keep the jumpier ones full of ammo, get weighting for doing it, and provide an elegant way to remove the supply class while retaining the functionality (and making it more accessable.)

A simple "drop some of your own ammo" key seems, to me, like a really nice way to go about it. Everything else is details... it's that mechanic that's most important...

Paegus
12th April 2007, 09:37
or just use the current system tweaked to match.

if the player requests ammo they get an icon, possibly only visible if you have one of the guns they do when they request it. you then walk up to them and +use to give them a mag. so if they're holding their pistol when they request, they request pistol ammo and perhaps even get an icon of the gun instead of just a generic ammo symbol. if they request ammo while holding a sonic alarm then you can give them one of yours, if you have one.

if you're going to do the death drop then make sure sonics are included and install an upper limit. i don't think there is one really beyond 11 since that's all you can get if everyone else is holding them when they die and you pick them all up. having 32 shouldn't really be allowed.

starstriker1
12th April 2007, 14:50
I've never liked the ammo request, system, since it really closes the ammo supplying functionality off to be near useless. Also, tossing a magazine is just more interesting than hitting "e" on another player.

Especially if you tied user speed to the amount of ammunition being carried! Then there's the potential for a trade off in dropping ammunition when you need to move quickly.

Ging
12th April 2007, 14:53
Tying speed to amount of ammo is just, well, a no.

We're certainly not going to make any of the magazines translucent - that just opens up an entire other can of evil worms that we really can't be bothered dealing with.

starstriker1
12th April 2007, 14:55
I suppose. Ah, well. I suppose the last people you want to reward with extra speed are the sprayers.

Ging
12th April 2007, 16:30
I seem to recall you bringing up a similar suggestion (at least, in terms of removing the classes) a while ago that I agreed with - in that we'd make the support class functionality into a secondary equipment choice that would have an impact on HEX maps (being able to "hack" objects faster or whatever)...

That's one I'm still fairly happy to go with, as is some way of getting ammo from corpses, rather than picking up dropped weapons / magazines. I came up with the idea of being able to tag a corpse as dead, first "use" tags it as dead (so the scoreboard updates as does the IRIS "aura") and second use can take a mag (obviously, if the corpse is already tagged, the first use would take the mag).

I'm just not entirely sure how to limit distribution of ammo - do we track the number of clips the player had left and offer them up, or do we magicate new ammo out of thin air for any player that tries to get some... Do supply character corpses offer more ammo than assault?

Paegus
12th April 2007, 17:22
i'd limit the corpse to unloaded magazines and only for the type of guns (primary and secondary) that they had. not sure how you'd go about telling the player attempting to retrieve the ammo that it does or doesn't fit any of his gun. could just stick it in the i-aura i suppose but it might look a bit clunky. their ammo counter could flash slighting white or red for compatible or incompatible.

do supply classes GET more ammo to fire than assault? though if you used that system the supply class becomes redundant doesn't it? or would this be an addition as opposed to a replacement? i can easily see it replacing supply class altogether, dumping the whole ammo request/giving system (which is rarely to the point of never used anyway) and just rely on corpses to replenish your loadout... like feeding...

could add a twist in that if you use up all of your original ammo then your weighting return is split between you and the player whose ammo you gleaned. but only if you're feeling devious.

i'm liking the tag-corpse idea though.

any thoughts on having sonics retrievable from corpses as well?

starstriker1
13th April 2007, 01:50
My thoughts:

*Offer up all remaining ammo from the corpse. It's more consistent, and I think consistency like that will be appreciated

*I'm torn between people being able to take magazine reloads from different weapons or not. On one hand, there's the consistency thing. The four primaries use radically different kinds of ammo. On the other hand, that means that the IRIS team WON'T be using a variety of weapons, they'll all just gravitate to a single setup (with current settings, that'd likely be the f2000) It also complicates the interface a bit, as you HAVE to let people know what kind of weapons others are carrying

*Why would a supply corpse be worth more? Didn't you just say that it'd all be resolved to a single class?

*I'm still really liking the idea of giving the ammo supplying functionality to everyone by letting them drop some of their extra magazines. Even if they were weapon specific, it'd be a really nice teamplay feature and would let the feature actually see the light of day

*Oooh, thats a really nice way to register dead marines. Would using the player be strictly necessary, though? You could, instead, simply have ANY untagged IRIS corpse near the center of the player's field of view trigger the tagging and a voice bind.

*I don't see why sonics shouldn't be retrievable... though, to be honest, I don't like them the way they're currently implemented. That could change, though, with IRIS view integration and if they stop beeping every time an IRIS walks through their beam. Additionally, it might be a good idea to limit their range to a certain laser length before it loses focus, and either don't allow their placement or don't have them detect past that distance. Every alarm placed so that it goes down the length of an entire hallway is a wasted alarm.

Ging
13th April 2007, 09:43
*Why would a supply corpse be worth more? Didn't you just say that it'd all be resolved to a single class?

Well, the supply class would be reduced to a secondary equipment choice, we'd give an extra clip (or two) and allow them to give it out (perhaps by dropping ammo "pouches" rather than magazines) - that, along with the improvements in HEX maps might make supply a more reasonable choice.


*I'm still really liking the idea of giving the ammo supplying functionality to everyone by letting them drop some of their extra magazines. Even if they were weapon specific, it'd be a really nice teamplay feature and would let the feature actually see the light of day

I just can't see anybody actually doing it though - but that's one of those things that playtesting brings up, so it's something I'll certainly think about.


You could, instead, simply have ANY untagged IRIS corpse near the center of the player's field of view trigger the tagging and a voice bind.

I thought about that - I had an issue with the fact that if the corpse were in a dark area, the player probably wouldn't have seen it but it would be automagically reported, "using" the corpse is sort of the equivalent to checking for a pulse and then reporting it in.

Euphoria
13th April 2007, 12:14
More suggestions- if a corpse is destroyed by 500 dmg phys, PS or nade the ammo and sonic alarms are also destroyed.

When the iris is killed his ammo isn't dropped but remains 'in' his corpse and can be picked up by selecting the corpse (like oblivion/morrowind, deus ex, etc) adding more incentive for the hidden to hang iris corpses up so the iris can't get to them. Could also be used by the hidden as bait or for taunting sprayers, if the remaining iris have little or no ammo and all other corpses are out of reach or destroyed.

Ging
13th April 2007, 12:30
Euphoria my lad - the first bit is a given.

The second bit is what I brought up yesterday :p

Paegus
13th April 2007, 12:53
I seem to recall you bringing up a similar suggestion (at least, in terms of removing the classes) a while ago that I agreed with - in that we'd make the support class functionality into a secondary equipment choice that would have an impact on HEX maps (being able to "hack" objects faster or whatever)...

if that becomes the only functional distinction then you're basically replacing the supply class with a technician class. i feel some remodelling may be required. or at least some re-texturing: swap the current supply model textures with the assault ones (they have 'armour' whether it's functional or not). change the assault texture to something more tech-like. the green works but perhaps grey instead? (white lab coats off the port bow capt!) speed boosts optional i guess though probably not. the p90/fn303 limitation goes better with that i think than they do with the current supply class. most games have the suppliers be the heavy weapons guy don't they or am i thinking only of the BF series? the p90 is a PDW after all so it fits a tech's purposes better than the rifle and the fn303 would be more in line with the technician's desire to capture rather than kill the subject.

/edit:
or you could go crazy nuts and have 4 classes/skins. 1 for each weapon:
fn2k assault blue
p90 technician grey
shotgun defensive(?) black
fn303 retrieval green

that would also serve to instantly solve the 'what kind of ammo does he have' problem without the need for any annoying HUD icons and whatnot...

/edit2:

*I don't see why sonics shouldn't be retrievable... though, to be honest, I don't like them the way they're currently implemented. That could change, though, with IRIS view integration and if they stop beeping every time an IRIS walks through their beam. Additionally, it might be a good idea to limit their range to a certain laser length before it loses focus, and either don't allow their placement or don't have them detect past that distance. Every alarm placed so that it goes down the length of an entire hallway is a wasted alarm.

if the sonics are integrated more into the iris aura (with range data?) then they could be more useful. also if they can be made less sonic and more radio so they're not so bloody annoying. moving their 3d sound positions to a hud icon and a mono-direction 'it came through your radio' tone to alert you to look around for the offending alarm might balance out any range data sent. having them range limited is off i think. the practical ranges that would happen at aren't really available in any map i've seen. and besides, what's wrong with having them cover the entire length of a hallway anyway? when done correctly it's vaguely useful.
having them discriminate between hidden and iris isn't completely implausible either. the hidden would theoretically distort the beam then it would return and be distorted again as the refraction passed through the beam. the iris would simply block the beam. not fool proof by any means but with a pinch of suspension-of-belief and a sprinkling of far-less-annoying it would work...

Ging
13th April 2007, 13:25
if that becomes the only functional distinction then you're basically replacing the supply class with a technician class. i feel some remodelling may be required. or at least some re-texturing: swap the current supply model textures with the assault ones (they have 'armour' whether it's functional or not). change the assault texture to something more tech-like. the green works but perhaps grey instead? (white lab coats off the port bow capt!) speed boosts optional i guess though probably not. the p90/fn303 limitation goes better with that i think than they do with the current supply class. most games have the suppliers be the heavy weapons guy don't they or am i thinking only of the BF series? the p90 is a PDW after all so it fits a tech's purposes better than the rifle and the fn303 would be more in line with the technician's desire to capture rather than kill the subject.

Er, whut?

Why would we swap textures? That entire bit of the post has me slightly confused, too much coffee this morning?

I think you're missing the point of the discussion slightly in some regards - there wouldn't be a weapon restriction anymore, as the supply kit would become an equipment choice that'd replace sonic alarms. You'd get the alarms, extra ammo (and the ability to drop ammo in "pouch" form) and the bonus to "hacking" in HEX, but you wouldn't be able to take anything else.


/edit:
or you could go crazy nuts and have 4 classes/skins. 1 for each weapon:
fn2k assault blue
p90 technician grey
shotgun defensive(?) black
fn303 retrieval green

No.

Paegus
13th April 2007, 18:24
hmm most likely... i can barely read it myself :o

so the current green model (that's slightly fatter iirc) would be completely done away with or you'd get it if you picked this 'supply package' option that gets crossed-out if you pick the wrong primary and vise versa?

Euphoria
14th April 2007, 14:18
Euphoria my lad - the first bit is a given.

The second bit is what I brought up yesterday :p

Wow, thats the nicest way of being 'Ginged' I've seen so far on these forums:p .


I think you're missing the point of the discussion slightly in some regards - there wouldn't be a weapon restriction anymore, as the supply kit would become an equipment choice that'd replace sonic alarms. You'd get the alarms, extra ammo (and the ability to drop ammo in "pouch" form) and the bonus to "hacking" in HEX, but you wouldn't be able to take anything else.

I like the sound of that, beats the current system.