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Rain
2nd April 2007, 02:41
Hey guys,

I've been a fan of the Hidden for a long time, but I personally feel like you are not taking the game to level it could play at. I think the ideas you have are great, but the game is too much of a typical FPS. Like why in the world would a creature with this description...

"The genetic manipulation has given Subject 617 enhanced speed, mobility and incredible strength - he can pounce like a tiger, cling to any surface and is known to pin victims up for feeding. Worst of all, the experiments have rendered him nearly invisible to the human eye."

Why would he have grenades? I mean, yeah it's a great weapon but it seems totally off the wall for the Hidden.

I don't want to make any attacks, but I feel you need to make the game scarier. Maps like Psychiatry and Manor are great examples. Psych is personally my favorite, an eerie environment, with dark lighting and tight corners.

I know no one will listen to me, as I am not a forum regular and these ideas may have been proposed before, but I feel the game should turned into a terrifying game, not a run-n-gun.

Here are a few suggestions to help in that...

- Manipulations of the environment are key. An example would be the vents on the Discovery level that shoot out steam. That steam looks like the hidden, and it's great. An example would be having pipes that randomly shoot out steam.
- Allow the hidden a psychological advantage. Now yes, he has one already but allowing for darker environments would be key. Also, replace his grenades with a grenades that cause the victim to suffer from delusions or other visual alterations. For example, if a grenade goes off next to you, perhaps your vision would blur or the walls would warp around you.
- Allow the hidden to crawl along walls. This would make it so he could move slower, with more patience and not have to jump around.


I've had more suggestions, but alas they escape me now. I hope no one is offended by this post, I am a big fan of the game and I love what you've created. I just feel like the direction is off and that this game could be terrifying. The only way I get scared while playing is if I let myself, but I want to be scared the whole time and not know what is around the corner. I hope you see what I mean and will take it into consideration.

Thanks guys!

Alt.F4
2nd April 2007, 02:54
I would say the most compelling reason why he should have the grenades (pipebombs) is to flush out the all to ever present campers. Although on my server i have reduced the starting pipebombs to 1 and use the AC script to add a pipebomb each time someone gets caught camping.

Alt.f4

starstriker1
2nd April 2007, 02:56
I don't know about you, but this is the closest I've ever seen multiplayer come to horror. I'm all for more potential for mind games, but this mod is FAR from squandering it's potential... it's unmatched for atmosphere and tense gameplay. Few games let you mess with people's heads as hidden does.

*The pipe bombs? He made 'em. The gameplay reason for having them is as a way to split up marines and unroot campers. If you need it explained, well... however messed up 617 is, he's still human, and whose to say what kind of knowledge he had before he went nuts? He was, after all, part of a project to create the ultimate covert ops agent.

*The maps are already getting a huge atmosphere boost, as the media section of the site shows (tons of shadows, HDR lighting, etc.)

*Map based refraction effects like steam and heat are appreciated when not used in excess. Suffice to say, the occasional use that they see in maps like train depot and discovery is probably enough.

*Environmental manipulation? Well, I won't ruin the surprises B5 will bring, but even the current build has tons of things you can do, just within the confines of moving objects around.

*The grenades are quite disorienting enough already!

*Wall crawling has been no'ed in the past. The cling is primarily as a movement mechanism or temporary reprieve. With practise, you'll realize wall crawling is entirely unnecessary, as with proper clinging the hidden can go a long distance without ever being on ground level for the IRIS to see.

Alt.F4
2nd April 2007, 03:08
Completely agree. I love it playing late at night with all the lights out. After a while you realise that you are just so focused on trying to see and hunt down the hidden that you nearly hear you own heart beating - not to mention remembering to breathe. It is actually freaky enough that a few people i know now refuse to play it.... But hell yeah i'm all for adding some more mind warping potential!


I don't know about you, but this is the closest I've ever seen multiplayer come to horror. I'm all for more potential for mind games, but this mod is FAR from squandering it's potential... it's unmatched for atmosphere and tense gameplay. Few games let you mess with people's heads as hidden does.

Euphoria
2nd April 2007, 11:35
*The maps are already getting a huge atmosphere boost, as the media section of the site shows (tons of shadows, HDR lighting, etc.)


I think I'm going to need that soon- I've lost all fear, nervousness or apprehension when playing the game. Heck, I barely get adrenaline anymore:(

Daedalus
2nd April 2007, 11:51
I think I'm going to need that soon- I've lost all fear, nervousness or apprehension when playing the game. Heck, I barely get adrenaline anymore:(

Welcome to the club. :p

Paegus
2nd April 2007, 11:58
yeah and if you watch the same scary horror movie over and over... chances are...

Mr. Bottomhat
2nd April 2007, 18:27
I never get scared, never been scared. I like the "damn pwnt" feeling you get when someone gibs you with a pallet or does an awesome series of taunt to lure/hunt you into the spot he wants before death.

ProgrammedToConsume
2nd April 2007, 18:42
Sorry rain, but Ging has already said that he doesn't want to add new nades for 617, read the stickies.

Mayhem
2nd April 2007, 19:25
I think I'm going to need that soon- I've lost all fear, nervousness or apprehension when playing the game. Heck, I barely get adrenaline anymore
Welcome to the club.

Haven't had a adrenaline rush until had a game with alot of vets ;) Getting away from 4 fn2k's blazing behind you is a freaking *ss kicking feeling.

Stalkyard ftw. Even with short rounds vs vets :)

-SM-SUCKER
2nd April 2007, 21:44
Pinning 8 Hiddies in cooler is adrenalin


.

Rain
3rd April 2007, 02:23
I agree Hidden is unlike most other multiplayer game, but when I analyze I think it's a traditional FPS with some horror/psych mind games mixed in. When I think of what it can be, I think of movies like Alien - tight, dark areas where I am afraid to look around the corner. Granted, every map can't be that way, but I think most should have that idea.

I think FEAR is a great example. Personally, I felt the game was very mediocre. When I played, it became very obvious that there would be 10 minutes of shooting bad guys and run-n-gun action and then five minutes of "OMGWTF I am going to die" feelings. Still though, those five minutes always scared me. Even when I knew the elevator was going to black out and the girl would be right next to me, it still scared me. Why? Because of the atmosphere they set up. Of course if I were to play FEAR 12 times in a row it would cease to be scarey, but with Hidden you can give it elements so that it always contains that possibility of just freaking you out.

To me, the idea of a man-creature that relies on stealth and pure power to take down his enemies throwing an explosive at your feet is absurd. I feel that the Hidden was designed to be an elite, stealth killer and perhaps he could use mind-games on his enemies as a way of weakening them, but not throwing greandes, anyone can do that.

That's just my two cents, though. I think people will feel more involved and become more terrified if you were to follow the path I see Hidden taking. I hope B5 lives up to what you say it'll be. <3

Isolation
3rd April 2007, 02:36
617 is an incomplete experiment, I think, not a stone cold murderer. The whole gameplay experience is 617 trying to escape while IRIS try to quickly find and kill or subdue him, to bring him back. He is in no way "elite", he actually comes off as frail and weak, not in complete control of his abilities.

Imagine if MacGuyver was captured and thrown into a stealth humanoid program against his will, but broke free before it could be completed. Yeah, I think that sums up 617. He's not some grisly creature bent on killing whatever he comes across, but a man (with enhanced senses/abilities) just trying to survive against a group that wishes to exploit.

Paegus
3rd April 2007, 10:36
hmmm... i always thought he was bent on killing them all otherwise he would just pounce away over the railing or wall and bugger off into the city. there'd be little the iris could do to stop him really. the fact that he chooses to remain and play with them like a cat plays with a mouse before finishing it off tell me he doesn't particularly care about escaping. something happened that let him out of his cage so he decided to go for a wee look-see and somehow ended up where ever he is when the iris folks catch up with him a couple of hours later.

MacGyver he is not.

Euphoria
3rd April 2007, 11:08
I'm siding with Paegus over 617 choosing to stay and fight rather than flee. In game, 617 could easily destroy the whole team as quickly as possible, but instead you have tons of options to draw out their deaths and make them even more humiliating or terrifying, like taunts, phys kills and choosing not to PS or nade. I'd say its more about vengence, and the hunted becoming the hunter.

Edit:
Pinning 8 Hiddies in cooler is adrenalin


.

So cooler's now playable?

Daedalus
3rd April 2007, 12:37
Well, if I remember the story it goes saying that the hidden is left in constant pain after he got experimented on. So yeah, he'd be a pretty pissed off dude.

Isolation
3rd April 2007, 19:14
MacGyver he is not.

617 made pipe bombs out of a pop rocks, scabs and some 2-liters of Sprite. That qualifies as being MacGyver :rolleyes:

Nah, I was just saying he's not stupid. He apparently MADE the pipe bombs, which when you think about it, is quite a feat for someone trying to make an escape.

ProgrammedToConsume
3rd April 2007, 19:18
Nah, I was just saying he's not stupid. He apparently MADE the pipe bombs, which when you think about it, is quite a feat for someone trying to make an escape.

Maybe his brain was enhanced along with his muscles.

Isolation
3rd April 2007, 19:31
Maybe his brain was enhanced along with his muscles.

But that goes against him being a proverbial "killing machine". If Infinitum were simply making elite slaughterbots, giving them a brain would be counter productive (the experiments would realize they are superior, and thus had no reason to be "used" as weapons. Even if a chemical dependence was forced, they would figure out a way to break it).

ProgrammedToConsume
3rd April 2007, 19:38
But that goes against him being a proverbial "killing machine". If Infinitum were simply making elite slaughterbots, giving them a brain would be counter productive (the experiments would realize they are superior, and thus had no reason to be "used" as weapons. Even if a chemical dependence was forced, they would figure out a way to break it).

A smart assassin is a good assassin. Also, something may have gone wrong with the experiment(besides him getting away). He may have been an anomaly.

Second, I didn't say he was a genius in every aspect, he may just know how to make weapons and slaughter mercilessly with no remorse(which makes an excellent weapon). Like an autistic, good in only one area but excellent at that area.

Isolation
3rd April 2007, 19:51
Very possible, he could have been given knowledge concerning weapons and tactics and little else.

ProgrammedToConsume
3rd April 2007, 20:50
Would you have your assassin any other way? Having an assassin perfectly fit for killing and nothing else sounds like the thinking of a scientist to me.

starstriker1
3rd April 2007, 23:13
1) Intelligence is a highly valuable trait in a soldier of ANY variety, allowing them to adapt to unforseen circumstances and make full use of their situation
2) IR is supposed to have loyalty imprinting programs. Wakefield, I believe, is supposed to have such imprinting.

Isolation
3rd April 2007, 23:46
I think every Sci-Fi movie ever tells us what can become of forced "loyalty", or things similar. Universal Soldier comes to mind for some reason... 617 would have to have had limited intelligence (enough to get him through combat situations) to avoid any possible "awakening" of his mind.

Given that 617 is incomplete, I'd wager he kinda stuck in both worlds.

Or, I'm insane yet again.

Paegus
4th April 2007, 00:05
i don't think there's been too much tamper with the minds beyond the loyalty imprinting which could just be done through positive association while under hypnosis and/or doped up. but keep in mind that wakefield is 2 'generations' newer than 617, batch 6 as oppose to 8, so perhaps the imprinting hadn't been perfected at the time or they gave it a try and it just served to help tip him over the edge so they decided to just lock him up while they tinkered. heck they don't even trust wakefield entirely as 'measures have been taken' or some such in case he goes bonzo.

starstriker1
4th April 2007, 00:06
I don't believe the first digit refers to "batches" of experiments, but instead to totally different areas of research.

Ging
4th April 2007, 00:15
Indeed, the 6 'series' is all about stealth / recon units. The 8 is a more mainline combat series, with a focus on leadership.

ProgrammedToConsume
4th April 2007, 01:04
I think every Sci-Fi movie ever tells us what can become of forced "loyalty", or things similar. Universal Soldier comes to mind for some reason... 617 would have to have had limited intelligence (enough to get him through combat situations) to avoid any possible "awakening" of his mind.

This isn't Sci-Fi. Loyalty imprinting wouldn'tbe that hard, like paegus said, use of drugs or hypnosis would be an easy means to secure loyalty. Though, as previously stated, 617 was an anomaly.

Rain
4th April 2007, 02:25
Okay, so I do neuroscience research so all this brain talk has hit my senses. I know you're just speaking in hypotheticals, but you're all a bit off base with your suggestions of means of developing loyality. Hypnosis is a crock and drugs aren't the most effective method. That's all backstory which doesn't play too much into this discussion though, but nice ideas!

Whoever said a smart assassin is a good assassin is dead on. The greatest criminals in history were brilliant. Charles Manson manipulated girls to follow him to the ends of the earth. Have you guys seen the Mythbusters where Adam visits a prison and looks at all the weapons prisoners have created out of materials they have access to (which are minimal)? It's incredibly impressive and scarey. I think a lot of harder criminals are really intelligent people, using their powers for evilzzz.

I also agree with the idea that if 617 was trying to get away, he'd be long gone. He'd have no problem getting away, instead he chooses to stay and 'play.' I feel this gives even more credibility to the idea of replacing pipe bombs with some sort of hallucinagen (sp). If he was really interested in just dispatching IRIS, he would just drop bombs on them (which some players do choose to do). Instead, it seems the game has been built more around a cat-and-mouse style of gameplay, which I feel pipebombs is totally in contrast to.

Like I said, I don't want to tear apart ideas or be insulting, but I feel that since we've been discussing the logic and theory behind the game, the suggestions I've given make even more sense. If 617 is out for revenge and to make his former captors suffer (which I feel he is), he would toy with them more, make them suffer more, assail them not only physically, but mentally. If his goal is to just run away, then the game serves no purpose. If his goal is to kill them no matter what method, then the pipe bombs do make sense and the game is fine the way it is, I just feel it loses a lot of potential.

starstriker1
4th April 2007, 03:02
He could escape easily, sure... but for how long? Obviously, if IRIS can track him to all these remote locations he's got some kind of low accuracy tracking device in him. IRIS is also the IMMEDIATE response of Infinitum Research to contain 617... the reason they aren't properly outfitted for fighting him, as they could wait for their thermal goggles to arrive in the mail. If he keeps running too long without slowing his pursuers down, he'll eventually be caught by forces he can't fight back against.

Perhaps more compellingly, 617 CAN'T just keep running. If you look at most of the map layouts, the IRIS members have him cornered. He's got no place to go... his only remaining option is to fight. Its less that he has control over the situation, and more that the IRIS are just eager to get him before he weasles a way out or the media catch wind of the whole thing.

I think that the pipebombs make more sense than some kind of mind warping weapon. Explosives would be easier to construct, by comparison... I doubt he'd have the materials available to construct a weapons as potent as, say, the nerve gas used in the 303. Even if he is now out to torment them, they'd be an ineffective and insane solution anyways. He's still just a guy with a knife versus 8 with guns... you can't assume that you'll be able to trick them the whole way, you need to be able to hit them hard. Besides, I'm not sure I see how hitting the IRIS with pepper spray or whatnot would be a more effective way to mess with them than high explosives and the associated shell shock.

Finally... gameplay trumps story consistency. The grenades are included because the fear of them is a fantastic way of keeping the IRIS from bunching up or sitting in corners too long. A disorientation (which, functionally, would be the current bombs minus the damage) would be far less effective for this.

Isolation
4th April 2007, 03:16
This isn't Sci-Fi.

It's... not... ?

So, IRIS, 617 and all that are real? Nice to know...

starstriker1
4th April 2007, 03:44
Fiction doesn't require it to be fantasy or sci-fi, you know.

I wouldn't put Hidden under sci-fi, either... sure, human genetic manipulation is involved, but thats a minor point.

Isolation
4th April 2007, 04:29
Using a knife to explode people.

A man being invisible through non-technological ways who can magically cling to walls using his ass or other appendages.

The same event happening over and over *technically*.

That qualified it as sci-fi to me. If I'm wrong, it's no big deal.

Paegus
4th April 2007, 10:02
the only maps that even attempt to contain him are
-manor. which has windows all over the place and is being replaced by decay that has gaping holes in the ceiling anyway
-origin. which is the closest to the place he was incarcerated. i still think he could ps/punt through some of those glass panels if he really wanted to.
-sewers. but there are doors that given the motivation should be openable with ps/punt and i recall the vent at marine spawn going up as well so who knows where that leads.
the rest (derelict, discovery, docks, executive, highrise, stalkers and depot) all have obvious routes of egress.
from a logical point of view he certainly wants to stay and play.

scifi doesn't need to be dripping with insanely advanced technology, rayguns and aliens. the best scifi all but completely glosses over any technological aspects in favour of the story. this is the future and involved technology and biotechnology that doesn't exist yet. it qualifies.

the problem i have with mind bending devices is how? the worst we've seen so far is vision blur while it is annoying and somewhat disorienting isn't exactly hallucination. the player isn't going to believe what they see anyway because they know better. i also feel that from a gameplay perspective such things would give the hidden too much of an advantage. flip it around (http://forum.hidden-source.com/showthread.php?t=8021) however and we'll talk :)

starstriker1
4th April 2007, 19:56
Genre destinctions are fuzzy and subjective, and I think the mod straddles the line.

Actually, I'd argue that even the seemingly open maps are less escapable than they appear. First off, the IRIS have tracked him to wherever he is, so they have some means of knowing where he is and where he's going, and therefore a way to cut him off. Second, they are engaging him, which means that they think they have him cornered. After all, they couldn't reasonably expect to CATCH him if he wanted to run away.

ProgrammedToConsume
4th April 2007, 21:05
It's... not... ?

So, IRIS, 617 and all that are real? Nice to know...

No, only jimmeh is real. I merely meant that this isn't some science fiction MOVIE you've watched, it's a game, Ging can make it how he wants.


I think every Sci-Fi movie ever tells us what can become of forced "loyalty", or things similar.

This is hidden:source, not universal soldier.


Whoever said a smart assassin is a good assassin is dead on.

Yay, I'm right for once.

starstriker1
4th April 2007, 21:48
Ging can make it how he wants.

Since, you know, Ging makes EVERYTHING in the mod. :P

blackhawk
4th April 2007, 22:15
Also, replace his grenades with a grenades that cause the victim to suffer from delusions or other visual alterations. For example, if a grenade goes off next to you, perhaps your vision would blur or the walls would warp around you.
- Allow the hidden to crawl along walls. This would make it so he could move slower, with more patience and not have to jump around.

LOVE IT

-SM-SUCKER
5th April 2007, 00:57
Since, you know, Ging makes EVERYTHING in the mod. :P
Poor devteam members. Ging gets all the credit. Nice soundtrack Ging. Maps are cool(er), too, Ging. The frontpage could use some polishing Ging...

Red
5th April 2007, 03:16
...on my server i have reduced the starting pipebombs to 1 and use the AC script to add a pipebomb each time someone gets caught camping.

Alt.f4

That is genius Iluhyou.

Server IP?

Isolation
5th April 2007, 04:25
No, only jimmeh is real. I merely meant that this isn't some science fiction MOVIE you've watched, it's a game, Ging can make it how he wants.



This is hidden:source, not universal soldier.

Oh, sorry... I'll remember next time not to think in established archetypes and keep ideas to myself. Go look at what I said. I was simply talking about the fictional concept of forcing loyalty on someone, not the whole damn mod.

I'll just keep my fucking mouth shut from now on.

starstriker1
5th April 2007, 04:31
Iso, you're overreacting.

ProgrammedToConsume
5th April 2007, 20:54
Oh, sorry... I'll remember next time not to think in established archetypes and keep ideas to myself. Go look at what I said. I was simply talking about the fictional concept of forcing loyalty on someone, not the whole damn mod.

I'll just keep my fucking mouth shut from now on.

Ok dude, I like you so I'll be nice about this, your overreacting. All I said was that sci-fi movies don't make the rules here. I didn't say anything rude nor was I insulting.


And ugh, yeah it was dumb to only say Ging. I automaticaly think of the coder since I like doing coding. So...Ging, Boxy, Khu, Gus, and all the rest can make it by their own rules.

BoltScar
22nd September 2007, 15:03
When i started playing on Beta 2 or 3 I actually would get scared with the game and somehow live the fear intensively, specially if the hidden used voice commands which own. Now after being used to the game, I go hunt the hidden instead of camping in a corner afraid of everything that moves.

Your ideas are good, random steam would be better than static steam that everyone already knows and wont shoot at it. But the nades alternative you gave... I was thinking more like a Mind Confusion technique, as if the hidden would be able to get into someones mind and make him see ghosts or hiddens everywhere, at a cost of full or almost full stamina and with limited charges or a long delay... maybe 1 mind illusion per round or something like that.

The nades are very useful when people are in groups, its hard for a newbie hidden to attack groups of IRIS, so he uses nades to damage and mess with their vision... too bad sometimes newbies use nades to actually kill people with the explosion.

Oh and I have an off-topic question: Why did they remove Manor? I remember Manor was a very good map, I had alot of fun there when I played hidden, so why?

Daedalus
22nd September 2007, 15:46
Your ideas are good, random steam would be better than static steam that everyone already knows and wont shoot at it. But the nades alternative you gave... I was thinking more like a Mind Confusion technique, as if the hidden would be able to get into someones mind and make him see ghosts or hiddens everywhere, at a cost of full or almost full stamina and with limited charges or a long delay... maybe 1 mind illusion per round or something like that.

Oh and I have an off-topic question: Why did they remove Manor? I remember Manor was a very good map, I had alot of fun there when I played hidden, so why?

Hidden's not a psychic. You should know this. :p

And manor was scrapped since boxy didn't like it. It got replaced with doom 3 aka decay. Can't see shit, cap'n.

starstriker1
22nd September 2007, 16:40
Decay isn't that dark, especially since the IRIS know the wonders of duct tape! :P

Also: serious thread necromancy!