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JamesKeenan
18th March 2007, 18:12
I don't want to add to the wall of text this post will most certainly be, so I'll just say that these are only ways I would improve the game, and don't necessarily mean to me that the game is incomplete with these, though some of my ideas (to me) seem like obvious implementations. I'll try not to repeat known issues or suggestions (Like the PS spamming animation problem, or the "switch weapons while reloading" problem), but forgive me if I suggest something already known or discussed.


Bugs and Issues

Dead/Surveillance Mode
While dead or surveying a player, if that player crouches, the camera does not. This makes tunnels and vents particularly interesting, but I figure it should be fixed just for realism. The idea is that we're seeing through his "head-cam" or whatever, I imagine. Thus the camera should move with the head. Also, sometimes in this mode, objects, players and destructible terrain will not show.

Aura View
Basically, players will occasionally "lose" their aura, making them invisible to Aura View. There is no way to adequately sum up how much this can cripple the Hidden. Sufficient planning is absolutely necessary to players who often times find themselves against 6 or more players with guns.

"Unconnected did 34 to you in 1 shot"
That is what falling damage reads as in the post-game report. I can't imagine it should be that way. Seems easy enough to correct.

Pounce sticking
I realise that an easy response to this is "L2P," and by angling the camera upward a bit more you could avoid this issue, but I still can't help but feel that it is an issue, for I can't imagine it was supposed to function this way. Problem is that if the camera isn't angled high enough, Pounce will merely skid the player along the ground for bit, and stop. I could argue this further, but instead I'll just say that I figure a slight basic upward propulsion would assure that Pounce... pounces.

Secondary Fire/Pigsticker
Even in the player guide, pigsticker is said to be tied to "Secondary Fire," and yet (mildly) confusingly, Secondary Fire is merely listed as Pigsticker in the control window. I can't help but feel this is a mislabeled control. Secondary Fire is used to the Rifle for the IRIS at least, if not something else. Renaming Pigsticker as Secondary Fire would make more sense than saying that IRIS have to use their Pigsticker control to zoom in. This would also tie in with making secondary fire actually BE the right-click, a later suggestion.



Minor Features

A Way to Turn the Music Off
I'm not going to criticise the choice of music for the game. It fits the general feel. However it is by far one of the most irritating things. Especially how it builds before going finally silent. I prefer to listen to my own music, but the "Music" option on Audio does nothing. I can't mute the game, as I need to hear foosteps and gunshots and such, but the music drives me crazy sometimes, and actually hinders gameplay at times, due to it's distractive nature.

Player Health
Being able to see the player's health while you're observing him is just one of those important aspects of the game, I feel. I can't think of a decent argument for the true benefit of this beyond I find myself so often wishing I knew how well (or bad) off the player I"M rooting for is. "How much did that fall hurt him for?" "Can he survive two more hits? Just one?"

Player Location
So far, the best way to tell a player where they are is "over here, by the trains/computers." Natural Selection did it, and it was a fantastic feature that added to the necessary gameplay and teamwork. What I mean is a little addition to the HUD that tells the player where in the map he is located, like "East Stairwell" or "Front Hallway." This also has the effect of teaching players the map more by giving a label to their current location, which is a great help for newbies.

Simpler Mute Function
I realise one already exists, but it's unrealistic to use in the middle of combat when you've still got to shut up the guy blasting Gwen Stefani while you're trying to hear the Hidden's footsteps. I figure a feature like Counter-Strike's would be sufficient, the method of being able to mute players through the score-board.

Basic Control Scheme
As I understand it, the default control scheme is that of the creator's. I'm not arguing it's specifically bad, but I would highly recommend the default control scheme for any game that has any wish for commercialism and marketability have more user-friendly control. Having jump linked to right-click instead of spacebar is kind of an issue. It assures the first few times a player is playing he's an easy target. While he's staying at his keyboard functions window, the Hidden tears him up. Every game I've ever known starts with some basic control scheme for a reason beyond "That's all they use."

Better Aura View
I debated on whether is was a "major" or "minor" feature. I settled on minor because of, what I feel, is the basic, obvious and necessary nature of this implementation would be. Aura View right now is unreliable because even though it can show longer distances than I feel it should, an IRIS 3 feet away but behind a sufficiently thick obstacle is invisible. The Player's Guide says that Aura View is an ability usable when the player is near to detect where the players are, and their health. Proximity is the only listed criteria. And yet, especially on hdn_dock, I can "see" players across the map, but not in the ship unless I at the right angle. I've stressed often my feelings on adequate information for the Hidden, and such an often times gimped ability that Aura View is, I can't help but feel it should be more useful. Being that the Hidden is still very visible motionless, having to stop while in the same room as the IRIS to be able to adequately "read" all the players is asking for death.

More Radio Commands
This mostly just applies to IRIS, since Hidden has enough taunts, and, usually, doesn't have a team to communicate with. And this also mostly just appeals to my desire for more utility commands. It wouldn't be hard to assign one more button for radio commands, and for the IRIS, one list could be all utility commands ("affirmitive," "negative," "Where is he?" "Hidden Spotted" "Over here.") and one for taunts ("He is one ugly mother" "Come eat my shotgun." "Get over here!" "Come out come out wherever you are!"). I don't really see this as necessary, just a desire of mine.



Major (gameplay changing) Features

Full Invisibility while Still
I can't imagine that this hasn't been a point of contention before I brought it up, I truly feel this should be how it is. It makes more sense as far as the game goes. It would help root out hackers. "Dude, how'd you see me standing still in corner?" "Lawl, I just did." Also, it would give the Hidden time to plan without fear of someone happening across an Aura viewing hidden trying to figure out what to do. There's already a timer on the Hidden. Giving him an option to use some of it for realistic planning is at least considerate, let alone necessary(in my eyes). It would also make pouncing onto a wall and clinging there a realistic option instead of just a way to get trapped, like it is now. The Hidden is already as visible as those gas vents, at least giving him an option to perch above to judge his actions would be nice. And with the Hidden's steep learning curve, IRIS win almost every single round I play. I'd even say 75% or more. It wouldn't hurt to give the Hidden something extra to work with.

Less Ammo
I realise this may be blasphemy, as there are only warnings not to ask for more as if we had so much already. Well it's my feeling that we do have so much. I've never run out of ammo, and the only people that ever do are the ones that shoot constantly from the start of the round. As it is now, the rounds are so short (I feel they should be longer, but that's server-based, not game-based) that the marines rarely have time to worry about using all their ammo. The IRIS have so much that there is hardly a concern for conservation right now. The only problem with shooting wildly is the vulnerability of the eventual reload time. There's no reason to conserve ammo, 4 clips is a lot. More than the players in CS get (if I'm not mistaken), and as opposed to that game, there is a realistic gameplay element for IRIS to be conservative.

I can't think of anything else. I"m almost positive I had more, especially a couple more Major Features, but I forgot them while typing... all that.

Also, reading over the list, it seems I only care at all about the Hidden. This isn't exactly true. But, quite frankly, it's frustrating to see the IRIS win so often. Even as IRIS, I don't want to win that often. If it were balanced enough, the win-lose ratio should be about 50-50, tipping either way depending on player skill. But as it is now, with how easy it is to do well as IRIS as opposed to the difficult playstyle of Hidden, IRIS win at least 80% of rounds. And yes, my number jumped.

Well, discuss. And I'll post more if I remember or think of them.

Ging
18th March 2007, 18:45
I've honestly got to question whether you've actually played much in regards to some of these points...

Let me just go over some of these:

Aura View - if there was an easy way of resolving this (ie, it was obvious as to what caused it) it would be fixed by now. However, the aura is under consideration for a reworking in terms of how it works (which I'll comment on a bit later).

Unconnected - not sure why that happens, but at the same time, I don't have a huge issue with it right now.

Pounce - This has been discussed to death, the fact that it's not changed should tell you something... We won't be changing how it works.

Secondary Fire - It's only used for the zoom and we wanted the focus to be on the pigsticker (as that functionality is one of the core aspects of the Hidden game experience, compared to zooming) - though it may get a rename in B5 due to the punt / rage implementation.

Player Health - I fail to see how this is an important aspect of the game - but it's been discussed elsewhere and is something we've talked about.

Player Location - right, so the bit of HUD that lists your location isn't doing just this? (this is one of those points I mentioned earlier btw)

Controls - and which muppet doesn't actually go and change controls before they start playing? Should be anyones first stop when they first boot up a game.

Aura - The current implementation of the aura is correct in so far as it shows all IRIS across the map, but is incorrect in how it overly relies on the PVS to dictate which players get displayed. Work is in progress to detach the reliance on the PVS, but it'll be staying just as it is otherwise.

Radio Commands - we thought long and hard about the radio commands and decided we didn't need a secondary menu nor did we need extra 'utility' commands, if you really want to communicate quickly and efficiently, use a headset.

Visibility - we're not changing how it works, it encourages 617 to find good hiding places rather than standing out in the middle of the room and becoming completely invisible (my, what fun that would be!)

Ammo - we've often talked about it, but the arguments generally tend to come out as a 'draw' so we've not changed it yet.

JamesKeenan
18th March 2007, 19:06
Player Location - right, so the bit of HUD that lists your location isn't doing just this?

I don't know how exactly to recover from that. I honestly never, ever saw that before. Not once. I haven't played the game that long, only for a week or so, but I honestly never saw it. Ever. I had to get in to a game after I read that just because I hard a difficult time I could have... blatantly missed it.

However.. in regards to the rest of the responses, I can accept the answers. My opinions still stand on things like ammo, Aura View and visibility, but they're only that. Opinions. And I can certainly accept the verdicts on simple whims like Radio Commands (though this still might help for better quick communication for those without headsets. I have one, but this isn't all about me) and Pounce. I really only brought them up because, well... I might as well in a suggestion thread, that's why I brought all this here in the first place. Just for discussion. I don't feel strongly about most of these. Like the unconnected issue, or player health, though that one I just would like to see regardless of it's mostly useless nature.

Like it matters knowing how much the grenade hit that player for. I'm dead anyhow. And knowing if your teammate shot you and left, or if it was the fall that hurt you, it doesn't matter. Although I can't say that if a left player hurts you AND you fall, if it registers as the same "player" that hurt you.

I also apologize for seemingly irritating you, which couldn't have been helped by asking things you seem to have grown quite a loathing for discussing, as well as asking... that question above.

And even though it doesn't affect me whatsoever, I still would feel that a more generic basic default control scheme would be advisable. The same human trait that governs those who disregard instruction manuals immediately governs those who want to jump into a game and learn through experience, and what a sudden halt it is to find that right-clicking is jump. Same feeling for the "Secondary Fire/Pigsticker" thing. These aren't really gameplay related, and ultimately don't affect... anything. Just... feelings.

Thanks however, for the responses.

Daedalus
18th March 2007, 19:28
I like this guy, he came in with some suggestions that didn't actually suck. :D

About pounce sticking - Well, this is somewhat of a engine issue. You'll learn to overcome it easily soon enough.

The hidden won't be becoming more or less invisible. It's really balanced the way it is.

And IRIS have just about enough ammo to go through a full round if they don't spray everywhere. I rarely run out of ammo, and when I do usually the hidden was aiming for that.

starstriker1
18th March 2007, 19:56
I actually agree with everything but the major suggestions... though most of the stuff really is polishing work.

This might be a good thread to come back to once all the major features and bugs have been dealt with.

Tsukasa1105
18th March 2007, 19:56
How about giving supply dudes the ability to drop an ammo pack or two rather then the whole infinite ammo to those who request it but can only supply one per person system (how is that logical?)

Cheesey
18th March 2007, 22:10
I like this guy, he came in with some suggestions that didn't actually suck. :D

That's almost the same I thought while reading it :D

Somethings you suggest are nice bits but there are more important things to change first (isntead of secondary fire/PS, control sheme, music - it's not THAT disturbing ;) ).

The visibility is talked through and through and as I noticed at almost every new release of a new Beta, there is a thread about "OMG you DID the hiddon more invizziblle! CanT C him!". It's really good the way it is, it's not that easy for 617, he's not doing vacation there to freeze ;)

Almost nobody on the server I often play is joining the support team, and if, nobody knows it ;) So we just have 3 clips we can spray and they are also good chosen. If you don't spray like mad ;)

Paegus
18th March 2007, 23:31
Controls - and which muppet doesn't actually go and change controls before they start playing? Should be anyones first stop when they first boot up a game.
while i agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments... it's like stickies. the majority of players jump into the game without checking anything. personally the 1st thing i do is... well actually that's set the graphics levels. but the 2nd thing is control layout. 90% of the time that involved finding out what the 'delete control' is and going down the list wiping everything.
making the default control scheme a little accessible right off the bat might not be a bad idea though. on the other hand having a default control scheme that is completely arse backwards would be hilariously cool. use all the default keys but set them to anti-intuitive controls.


How about giving supply dudes the ability to drop an ammo pack or two rather then the whole infinite ammo to those who request it but can only supply one per person system (how is that logical?)

that particular ability is an active bug. the supply guys are only supposed to be able to give each player 1 package. though i suppose it would be more logical to just limit the number of available packs to the number of players divided by the number of suppliers.
as is it's quite fun really. 2 suppliers with p90s can hold any mono-accessible location indefinitely by resupplying each other.

Tsukasa1105
18th March 2007, 23:37
Well, I had in mind actually just letting them drop say 2 of those little green ammo packs from tfc wherever they like, and let people pick them up. Of course everyone can leave them at spawn for retrieval later but hidden could slice them to destroy em ;)

Ging
19th March 2007, 00:05
making the default control scheme a little accessible right off the bat might not be a bad idea though. on the other hand having a default control scheme that is completely arse backwards would be hilariously cool. use all the default keys but set them to anti-intuitive controls.

Though - remember that my control scheme getting in with any release is a complete mistake, there is meant to be a more standard scheme that won't make my name be quite so bloody common.

Isolation
19th March 2007, 00:14
I hope I.R.I.S. Member makes a return. I miss that guy.

Daedalus
19th March 2007, 14:21
on the other hand having a default control scheme that is completely arse backwards would be hilariously cool. use all the default keys but set them to anti-intuitive controls.

"OMFG HOW DO I SHOOT!!!1"

Seeing gings running around in random directions, suiciding when they see the hidden would be hilarious indeed. :D

JamesKeenan
19th March 2007, 14:43
Well, concerning my original suggestions, thank you Daedalus for your kind words. And after seeing a video on youtube from you, those words mean a lot more.

As far as the backward control scheme, I'd put shoot to W or Spacebar, so when the go to move or jump, their gun just goes off, and if they have a shotgun, maybe it'll even scare 'em.



But, about the controls... It's basic psychology that a lot of people like to learn through playing and some friendly player advice. (I try to be that way.) The best people I ever knew are the ones that never got irritated giving people help, cause we all needed it at some point.

Just like some people drink and some don't, some people just don't like to pour through instruction manuals before they start to play, they want to just "do." So I get a little irritated with people that ferociously berate everyone who asks a nubbish question like they were somehow personally offended by his total stupidity. Or that spend the time to write the response of how he's a total idiot for not using the search feature, when they could have taken the same amount of time, maybe just a little more, to write out the answer. Giving him the answer, and pointing him in the direction of more answers is much better than just expecting every new player to be so self-sufficient.



EDIT: Oh, and concerning Daedalus's Hidden video, I can see how the game is finely balanced for him, and other's. I mentioned before the issue with Hidden's steep learning curve. But so few Hidden are ever that good (I myself am working on it) it certainly seems that Hidden needs some help somehow. 85% of the games I play are IRIS won. (My estimate jumped again, yes.)

Tsukasa1105
19th March 2007, 15:46
Here's a minor quibble about the game (the Source engine really): when you chuck an item, it goes incredibly far at 45 degrees. Yet, when you chuck the same item forwards, it doesn't have nearly the power at which it should (horizontal and vertical velocities are directly related to the angle, yet in the source engine it seems they arent). I dunno, maybe its just me.

starstriker1
19th March 2007, 17:19
EDIT: Oh, and concerning Daedalus's Hidden video, I can see how the game is finely balanced for him, and other's. I mentioned before the issue with Hidden's steep learning curve. But so few Hidden are ever that good (I myself am working on it) it certainly seems that Hidden needs some help somehow. 85% of the games I play are IRIS won. (My estimate jumped again, yes.)

Unfortunately, that has to be done in a way that 1) doesn't make the good hiddens even MORE deadly and 2) doesn't dumb down the gameplay.

The problem is that playing as the hidden is less about wrestling with the controls and more about learning proper timing and developing an appropriate playstyle... as the hidden's heavy emphasis on speed and stealth takes quite a bit of time to get used to if you're a deathmatch player. In that regard, there's little that can be done except, well... better manuals. The only other options are a hidden HUD that is more helpful to new players and/or tooltips.

Another possibility, albiet a minor point, is making anyone who pounces automatically go into a crouch... which is a technique that almost every good player uses to present a smaller target profile and not get snagged on obstacles.

Also: I disagree with your opinion that the hidden should be winning half the rounds. That kind of 50-50 win ratio is ideal when you're trying to balance two teams of equal players, but this game is, at it's ideal and maximum player count, a game of 1 vs 8. Its not too much fun to lose, and if you reward the one player at the expense of 8 others with too much frequency, people will get frustrated. We want it fun for the IRIS too, remember!

<Beatlemania>
23rd March 2007, 04:02
I like this guy, he came in with some suggestions that didn't actually suck. :D


Pretty true, my first week into playing i wanted to be able to fly and look like the predator or a bug alien.

ProgrammedToConsume
24th March 2007, 02:12
I like you man. Your thinking out your words(not spamming like I used to) and accepting what advice these guys have to offer.


All I can say is:The search button is your friend when starting a thread in the suggestions forum.