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Handsome
11th January 2007, 21:35
First: i hope all of these suggestions were not already posted again and again. I know some are, but i'll post them anyway to insists on these.

My 0.2$ suggestions:

-when hidden is bouncing all around, hanging a body, why dont blood spills out of it and sticks to the ground, walls etc? Like that, iris can follow the bloody marks (Blooody marks!) plus it adds a "dramatic" impact to the scene (but maybe a little decals overload?)

-when the hidden feed, it needs *more* blood jazzing of the corpse, (and a foutain liquid like blood, not just "puffs"): Blood Fest !

-Shotgun's power should be redone because it generates so many lucky shots that it's indecent (for the average player, you get killed so many times by "blind shooters" -or maybe i'm just totally noob, it's a possibility, yeah.-): it should be lethal on very closed range and each pellet should lose power rapidly when distancing from the point of emission...

-Is it a way to avoid that hidden becomes clearly visible (or making an object/decal/texture invisible, so making hidden visible in a way) when passing in front of textures with alpha transparancy (smoke, ivy, grids etc ?) i know it's a shader's problem, maybe it need too much passes to render a refraction through an alpha transparancy and invert?

-i insist: LAM beam *must* keep refracting when in contact with hidden's body.

-sonic alarm mines could be put and re-stocked an re-put again and so on.

-Ps should spray more blood ( :) ) 'cause an exploded iris looks like he was fried better than smashed.

-Grenades' smoke should stay a little longer, and not disappearing so fast (like growing while fading for 2-3 seconds).

- the shotgun shouldn't have a laser beam attached to it: it's useless seeing the accuracy of the thing on the medium/long range , it should be mounted with a light by default, and, if selected, laser should be on the pistol *only* (when light is selected, shotgun and pistol have it mounted btw) When NVGS are selected, shotty has nothing mounted on it, and when sonci alarms or adrenalin shots are selected, it still has the Light torch

-when scoped, FN2000's view should be shacking a bit (you're not supposed to be totally calm and relax with your heartbeat flat when your chasing -or trying to survive to- an invisible superhuman-cannibal-killer... you should have stress, so your arm's shacking a bit.)<= it adds some dramatic effect and it help immerses better.

-IRIS Should have more radio commands ("negative" anyone?, "follow me" , "need reinforcements", "cover me" ..yes like CS does, but hey, CS does it like it's in real... sooo you're not copying CS, but RealityŠ.) Hidden's "radio" is ok+10 : I just luuuuv hiddy's lines!

-iris' radar's coverage area should be wid...no..well..it's ok. let it alone...maybe just a little b... no, no!

-bodies should look heavier when thrown, hanged, etc...(is it even possible to achieve it without altering Hidden's capacities? dunno.)

-you should lesser the "bumpiness" for the skin (flesh) of characters, they sometimes looks weird (Source limitation?)

Well.... many of my suggestions are visuals/atmospheric ones, but it adds to the experience so i feel it's important.


And again: Would thou, please, excuse my crappy english.

Paegus
11th January 2007, 22:07
why dont blood spill out of it and stick to the ground, walls etc?
sounds fun... probably in the works.


needs *more* blood jazzing of the corpse
see above


you get killed so many times by "blind shooters"
the fn2000 is by far more effective than the shotgun. there's been threads about this before and there will be threads about it again.

*cough*netcode*cough*


avoid that hidden becomes clearly visible
if they can change the order in which the engine renders different types of things then yes. if not, then no. once you learn how to be an effective hidden you'll learn to avoid what i have punnerifically named 'dead-spots'


LAM beam *must* keep refracting when in contact with hidden's body.
t's a LAM (Laser Aiming Module) not a HAMwLRF (Holographic Aiming Module with Laser Range Finder or hamwillerf). and even if it was it wouldn't be able to figure out the where to magically draw the dot because it wouldn't be getting getting any of its light BACK to do the range calculations.
a HAMwSRF (Holographic Aiming Module with Sonic Range Finder or hamwisserf) might work... but the hidden would probably be able to hear that coming a mile away...


sonic alarm mines could be triped and untriped and triped
meaning what? when they're triggered they start going off and dont stop until someone walks up and +uses them?
that's pointless because the hidden will either zero in and destroy it with much more ease or be long gone in the time it takes you to get there anyway.
if the sonic alarms used radio instead so the hidden couldn't hear it but something on the iris hud lit up to indicate that it had been triggered then sure... why not. though it might be easier just to have the trigger duration be a bit longer


Ps should spray more blood
it's supposed to but i gather there were problems with blood spraying


Grenades' smoke should stay a little longer, and not disappearing so fast (like growing while fading for 2-3 seconds).
i'm indifferent about this. but if it's a realism thing then bow to the LAM interection as well.


the shotgun shouldn't have a laser beam attached to it: it's useless seeing the accuracy of the thing on the medium/long range...
probably not but that gets complicated. if you have a shotgun and the NGVs you'd need an extra button to trigger them. and you'd have both... not that the NVGs anything like as useful as the flashlight anyway.


when scoped, FN2000's view should be shacking a bit
roaming scopes are always a plus.


-IRIS Should have more radio commands
some of them at least are in the works


iris' radar's coverture area should be wide
the iris radar needs to update correctly when you turn first... then we can worry about its range.


bodies should look heavier when thrown, hanged, etc...
realism is always fun just so long as it doesn't ruin my ability to whirl them around in circles before flinging them so they spin through the air like a helicopter


"bumpiness" for the skin
i've never looked that closely at them. as iris i'm usually more interested in the hidden. as hidden my vision overlay is (intentionally) so distorted i couldn't see it anyway.

starstriker1
11th January 2007, 23:21
-Shotgun's power should be redone because it generates so many lucky shots that it's indecent (for the average player, you get killed so many times by "blind shooters" -or maybe i'm just totally noob, it's a possibility, yeah.-): it should be lethal on very closed range and each pellet should loose power rapidly when distancing from the point of emission...


Fact of the matter is, as Paegus said, the f2000 is actually much more dangerous than the shotgun is. I personally agree that a change is needed... but this is a contentious issue. The shotgun was initially on par with the p90 (in a distant build where the p90 itself was weaker), and then all weapons were made more powerful with the shotgun not getting enough of a boost to remain effective, and then in a recent build they were upped enough to make them the brutal weapons that they are. When anything changes that much, you get people who preferred it one way, people who prefer it another, and a great many people who are convinced that no one will ever be satisfied with it.

The change I'd personally like to see at this time is a predictable spread pattern and perhaps a drop in damage (though I'm no longer quite certain if we want to go back to a shotgun without a one shot point blank kill), but thats another debate entirely, and I know a number of people disagree with me on that.




-i insist: LAM beam *must* keep refracting when in contact with hidden's body.


That it stops when it touches the hidden is an unintentional bug. I believe its on the list to be eventually fixed...



-Grenades' smoke should stay a little longer, and not disappearing so fast (like growing while fading for 2-3 seconds).



I'd be down with that, it'd be nice for atmosphere. The additional smoke and chaos could allow for all sorts of craziness... if the smoke effect was long enough, it'd be like a smoke grenade frag grenade combo!

However, rendering order is the issue, and it's the same thing that causes all the other visual bugs with the hidden you mentioned. Particle effects, including grenade smoke, sometimes give the hidden away instead of obscuring him as they should. Ever wondered why no map has rain or fog? Thats why... it makes hunting the hidden like shooting fish in a barrel.



- the shotgun shouldn't have a laser beam attached to it: it's useless seeing the accuracy of the thing on the medium/long range , it should be mounted with a light by default, and, if selected, laser should be on the pistol *only* (when light is selected, shotgun and pistol have it mounted btw) When NVGS are selected, shotty has nothing mounted on it, and when sonci alarms or adrenalin shots are selected, it still has the Light torch


Why bother? Leave it to people to choose... the difference between carting a flashlight around or an LAM is mostly down to personal preference anyways. Besides, the flashlight isn't always perfect as an aiming guide for the shotgun. Sure, its an imprecise weapon, but the best way to maximize your chances of a hit is to have the cone of fire CENTERED on your target. Hence, laser.




-when scoped, FN2000's view should be shacking a bit (you're not supposed to be totally calm and relax with your heartbeat flat when your chasing -or trying to survive to- an invisible superhuman-cannibal-killer... you should have stress, so your arm's shacking a bit.)<= it adds some dramatic effect and it help immerses better.



A slight waver to it might be nice, sure, but the zoom is pretty much useless anyways, and that won't help much. Your target is a refraction, after all...




-iris' radar's coverture area should be wid...no..well..it's ok. let it alone...maybe just a little b... no, no!



There was some talk about replacing the radar with a HUD based tracking system... a marine counterpart to the hidden's aura, except that it tracks teammates instead of enemies and is a big tactical tool for the IRIS instead of a hunting tool like aura vision. I don't know exactly what's happening with that at the moment.

Oh, and your english isn't nearly as bad as that of some of the other people who have come in here to make suggestions, so don't worry. It's pretty good for someone who isn't (I presume) a native speaker.

Handsome
13th January 2007, 01:47
Ha.. i missused the word.. I wasn't talking about turning Alarms ON or OFF. I was talking about puting a sonic alarm, taking it back into stock, re-puting it somewhere else. Re-usable Sonic Alarms if you see what i mean. Ok, i'm not totally sure if it could be really useful for the gameplay (apart people exploiting it to climb high walls wich is stupid indeed..)


The LAM refraction bug... frankly, i feel very strongly that it must be kept as it is... i use it anytime to check if the hidden is not standing in some darky spots, waiting for me to offers him my back (..... ....you pervert!).
If it disappears, i feel like i'll die many many times more than as usual. And please don't tell that "against a very good hidden it's useless [..]" no, it isn't, and all players are not very good hiddens, far from it.
Dont overhandicap the iris.

Think about people who likes to be IRIS too (me for exemple), i like hunting, and i'm rather good at it seeing the fact that i am pretty new to the game, and the LAM refraction is very useful sometimes.

And again, lasers, irl, do interacts with refractive objects, it doesn't have to be a "HAMwLRF", it's just a laser. I insist: the first time i saw the dot was refracting with hidden's body i thought "wow, brilliant idea, and nicely done" so i'm a bit confused now that i see it is considered a bug....

The Hidden do have a crosshair, why? it breaks immersion a bit i think and it's like..useless?

starstriker1
13th January 2007, 02:24
Good call. The crosshair isn't needed for the hidden, especially if the IRIS aren't getting one!

Well, the laser should be shining right through him, not bouncing off him. Technically, it should be going off at some angle, and not going straight through, but it's ultimately an aiming aid, not a hidden detector. Keep in mind that the dot would then be refracted through the hidden, maybe making the signs of his presence easier, not harder, to see.

Regardless, it currently is a bug. Removing it won't handicap the IRIS, even the new IRIS, to any considerable degree. The times when it gives the hidden away obviously are pretty few in number... heck, the flashlight is better for seeing the hidden, since the environments tend to have lots of dim spots that make him tough to pick out. The only real purpose of it is precision shooting.

<Beatlemania>
13th January 2007, 02:37
pretty dang good for your two cents. any good critic of a horror surely knows that the key to making something scary is making it realistic...knowing it could 'happen to you' is what makes something really terrifying.
i might write more about more specifics

Ging
13th January 2007, 03:24
Hang on - since when was horror realistic?

Kira Yamato
13th January 2007, 03:38
The Hidden do have a crosshair, why? it breaks immersion a bit i think and it's like..useless?

No, he uses a knife. The cross-hairs for it are an aiming aid.

Handsome
13th January 2007, 03:52
No, he uses a knife. The cross-hairs for it are an aiming aid.

You must be kidding? (or maybe not?)
When hidden, i dont have useness of a cross-hair, i just slash the guy who's in center of my screen. i dont think hidden needed such accuracy like he was trying to sew IRIS clothes like a good ol'mamma taking care of her childs. :p

starstriker1
13th January 2007, 04:52
I agree. The crosshair should go.

Demented
13th January 2007, 07:05
+1
Die crosshair die.

Oh, and I enjoyed "rader coverage" being referred to as "coverture", but that's just incidental.

Zabiela
13th January 2007, 08:28
And it will make people more cautious when throwing grenades.

Daedalus
13th January 2007, 09:26
Yeah, the current crosshair isn't really in theme with the hidden. Then again my net_graph isn't...

Perhaps it could be replaced with something else, something like the crosshairs you see on aliens in NS.

-SM-SUCKER
13th January 2007, 09:50
I need the crosshair to pounce through tight spots like the railing with glass on executive. But otherwise it's not really necessary.

Paegus
13th January 2007, 10:38
the tip of the knife is a pretty good indicator of where you're going... assuming it's not playing the active idle animation... or you dropped something incorrectly and have lost your weapon view.

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/8174/hdnsewers0000nx3.th.jpg (http://img149.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hdnsewers0000nx3.jpg)



as striker mentioned the LAM dot will or rather should still be affected by interaction with the hidden. even if the beam isn't bent at some crazy angle as to 'disappear' or some such your view of the dot will still be distorted and since you can move it around...

Daedalus
13th January 2007, 11:08
Darn, seems everyone's getting a sneak peek at b5 cept me. Guess my PMs don't work.

Handsome
13th January 2007, 11:12
as striker mentioned the LAM dot will or rather should still be affected by interaction with the hidden. even if the beam isn't bent at some crazy angle as to 'disappear' or some such your view of the dot will still be distorted and since you can move it around...

Cool, just what i wanted to hear! Thx for the relief!

Ging
13th January 2007, 12:35
Guess my PMs don't work.

PM's have nothing to do with becoming a tester...

Paegus
13th January 2007, 13:14
here's a really evil thought for the lam...
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/1813/refractivelamyohw2.png (http://imageshack.us)

right up against a wall the hidden is screwed. otherwise the light is diffused into nothingness


ray tracing by hand is fun!

Euphoria
13th January 2007, 13:34
That would make the LAM incrediably lethal, almost bordering on overpowered. Maybe a battery life would limit when it could be used, but I'd like to see it in, putting more emphesis on remaining useen and unnoticed.

Pinecone
13th January 2007, 19:55
A battery life on the LAM would be awesome. Good suggestion.

Paegus
13th January 2007, 22:50
i wouldn't count on it. your average laser pointer can run for ages on a couple of batteries no larger than the rubber on the end of a pensil. certainly longer than it takes to kill or be killed by the hidden at least.

gutter, mind, out of...

starstriker1
13th January 2007, 23:39
The hidden's head is not a prism. :P

Paegus
14th January 2007, 00:07
refraction bends light waves. if the surface is flat the beam just goes somewhere else. if the surface is curved the light will be lensed.

Zabiela
14th January 2007, 00:33
Lol, stickdeath!

starstriker1
14th January 2007, 04:14
He's bending light around him, instead of actually refracting anything through himself.

Demented
14th January 2007, 04:35
The laser ought to be a little refracted, but certainly not like a prism.

Euphoria
14th January 2007, 10:28
fun gameplay mechanics> realism

EDIT: goes into flame retardent bunker...

Handsome
14th January 2007, 11:04
Anyway, you're not near the point where a 3d engine or pixel shaders can generates Caustics (http://graphics.ucsd.edu/~henrik/images/caustics.html) like these in real time... just drop that idea. Those effects takes minutes to render on 3dstudio for example.

Euphoria
14th January 2007, 14:47
What I had in mind was nothing as complex as those caustics, but something more like the surfaces directly the hidden being illuminated like a flashlight on low batteries, nothing too intricate. But as this isn't my interlectually property and I might be going off at a tangent of what paegus orginally intended, I'll stop posting on this issue unless I'm personally questioned.

Paegus
14th January 2007, 23:07
don't worry about it... it wasn't a serious suggestion. just an evil one that i know perfectly well wont make it due to it being unbalancing to the point of throwing earth off it's axis or some such. there's no reason for it not to happen in reality but gameplay wise... oh boy...

starstriker1
14th January 2007, 23:09
Well, since the hidden isn't technically refracting light... :P

Paegus
15th January 2007, 00:04
ugh... either way he's bending it... the beam of laser light is NOT infinitely small so different waves hit different points and are bend at different angles. the effect is that the beam can either be focused to a point after which it will unfocus (become diffuse) or get diffused right off the bat. either way the beam eventually spreads out and losses intensity.

your basic lens (aka the hidden as rendered in DX9)
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/7458/lensedpw1.png (http://imageshack.us)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens_(optics)

starstriker1
15th January 2007, 03:26
It wouldn't be that dramatic, though, since the light bending is near perfect on the hidden's part. The effect given by simply having the dot on the other side, going through the normal refraction, would be more than enough as an approximation of the effect.

wiggle987
15th January 2007, 11:51
This thread makes me wish I payed more attention in physics class.

StillCrazy
17th January 2007, 14:14
**N00B Alert**

Can i just clarify what actually happens when the Lam hits the hidden at present, i was under the impression that the 'dot' just appears on the Hidden (eg. if i am sweeping a room and suddenly the dot becomes the size of a saucer, the hidden is within knifing distance?). Or have i got this wrong, and what actually happens is that the 'dot' disappears, like it does when you point it at the union jack draping over a ledge in the 'office' level, i assume this is because the 'dot' is being displayed on the wall behind)


Hope that makes some sort of sense?!

'Crazy

Handsome
17th January 2007, 14:20
The dot becomes huge and somewhat disformed when you hit refracting places on hidden's body.

Paegus
17th January 2007, 16:34
http://forum.hidden-source.com/showthread.php?t=6708