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-SM-SUCKER
3rd January 2007, 11:22
I've read many posts in which people mention/complain about more good players. This means that the newcomers will have an even harder time. So my suggestion would be to give those "good" players a little disadvantage:


If someone wins X rounds as hidden against more than Y players,
the next time he becomes IRIS
he will not be able to see the Hidden for Z rounds.

It's not such a big deal, because it's only one sense. Another option would be to just reduce the shader value so the Hidden would be less visible. I know that this is perfectly against the stickies, but this would reduce those uber-players to empty a server. Server variable maybe?

Daedalus
3rd January 2007, 11:36
It's not such a big deal, because it's only one sense. Another option would be to just reduce the shader value so the Hidden would be less visible. I know that this is perfectly against the stickies, but this would reduce those uber-players to empty a server. Server variable maybe?

You know that wouldn't work if there is even one player on the IRIS team with a skill level above the others. They'd just keep playing ping-pong with hidden selection.

The first suggestion would be good as a server variable only, for use in servers who'd like to train newbies.

Another idea would be restricting weapons based on how many round you won as hidden. Say you went on a 3 round winning spree? Only support weapons for you for the next 5 rounds...

Paegus
3rd January 2007, 11:50
hdn_selectmethod 2 is soo much simpler.

edit°
3rd January 2007, 11:52
I think this is an important point so I'll try and get this right, sorry about the read.

I think its punishing the rest of us because people aren't dealt with properly by the community and admins. Warn said players that if they really enjoy ruining the game for everyone then they're as bad as cheaters anyway. If someone is doing it in a server you're in, chastise them or vote with your feet and leave.

I will say though that at the end of the day its up to everyone how they play. If they're within the mechanics and using everything in a working as intended way, they're not doing anything technically wrong. Just because you and I don't enjoy triple nading the IRIS at spawn in stalkers and then slashing the rest in seconds doesn't mean someone else shouldn't be allowed to (providing the server and admin permit it).

If in 6 months time the community completely reverts to how it was in B1 and says "Fair enough, PS everyone as fast as possible, thats what is fun for the majority of us" then no one can really argue since its a game and there is no right or wrong outside of what the majority set. We're approaching a time though with hidden where, because of the pressure from a fair old few of the veterans, its becoming trendy to play considerately with regards to players who are having a hard time beating you. To be honest I'm glad, but thats because this is how I PERSONALLY would prefer to spend my time. I know there (has been?) plenty of people who DON'T enjoy playing like this.

Hard coding something like this into the game is a real mistake if you look at it logically anyway. Your potential playerbase are to be poached from garys mod (where they have a paler shade already if its still going), CS (where competition is everything and the idea of not killing someone in the quickest most efficient way is absurd) and HLDM (which is by and large pure DMers who just love blowing shit up, again as fast as possible from my experience). If you look at that I think its impossible to honestly say the mod would benefit in terms of playercount by punishing people striving to be the best statistically. Games in general are heading more and more into the "I am the pwner, check my stats/gear" scenario so really (as much as I hate the attitude) I don't think we can go actively against it to quite this level lest the mod risks completely sinking.

I think theres already enough pressure from the community and all thats needed are more server admins flying around the place. Really, the only right and wrong in games are defined by the server admin you're playing under so its just down to servers to set up and make their policies known before everyone can find their niche.

Zabiela
3rd January 2007, 21:15
I think this could be a good idea. When im playing with people of a noticably lower skill level than me, its pure fun as the hidden, because its so easy to bring your level down to them. Ill spend the whole round taunting, throwing stuff, building box forts on their path, sticking barrels around corners... and they enjoy it.
Its when im iris that I cant.... um.... "lower" my skill level. When I see the hidden, and most of the time hes in my FOV I do, its hard to not shoot him, to go easy you know. For example, lets say I just had the hidden for 3 rounds. Finally someone else has it, so i decide to take it easy for a couple rounds, but then as soon as the round starts, the hidden rushes me in a crouch pounced manner, and knife scooches me. I cant really do much but defend myself by spraying him with lead. Or I see him walking around in plain view... do i just stand there and wait for him to realise how obvious he is or shoot him? Now when that happens i usually hit them with 1 bullet and let them think about whats happening.

So, I think if anything, the iris needs "impairment", and I think reducing the visibility of the shader little by little after x number hiddens killed would be cool. I like the challenge, and the dx9 shaders are getting kinda too easy. If the iris starts to go on a losing streak, the shader could ease up a little maybe. There could be a text based notification system at roundstart: "Hidden kills: 4 | Hidden visibility: 0.7"

All of this would need to be optional cvars tho.

edit: now that I think of it, all this could be done with server side scripts if the hiddens visibility had a scalable cvar.

Pan the Goat God
3rd January 2007, 22:00
Generally after running my score up, I try to play fair by just Physing for the rest of my rounds as hidden, then forfeiting hidden selection and switching to p90 or 303.

About as fair as it gets without vets having to play with their eyes closed.

Zabiela
3rd January 2007, 22:04
Generally after running my score up, I try to play fair by just Physing for the rest of my rounds as hidden, then forfeiting hidden selection and switching to p90 or 303.

About as fair as it gets without vets having to play with their eyes closed.

Doesnt it ever happen tho, that even when only physing, the next round you get iris, you kill the hidden right away? As unintentionally as possible?

Demented
3rd January 2007, 22:17
With a newbie Hidden, it happens to almost everyone.

TheMorris
3rd January 2007, 22:38
Personally I do not like impairments as give a disadvantage to becoming good at the game, I don't want the full experience only when I cannot play the game to the best of my ability, as that impedes progression by giving someone a set limit to how much skill they can have.

Also if this happens and people get used to playing with these disadvantages, imagine how they will play before them. If someone can kill the hidden effectively with the reduced visibility or whatever the set it limiter is, when they are not in effect they will become an even better play, causing more and more havoc.

Something limiting a good player is not a good thing, it will only make them better. Causing them to absolutely destroy everything when the limiters are not in effect.

Zabiela
3rd January 2007, 23:42
Hmmm, maybe I should just try toying with dx8 while b4 is still out....
Havent seen u in a while morris, howsitgoin.

Demented
4th January 2007, 00:13
dx8 will still be there in b5, I believe. It's dx7 and below that are gone.

Paegus
4th January 2007, 01:33
some people have a visibility difference between 80, 81 and 90. on my machine using 81 i can hardly see the alpha blended hidden at all. 80 is much more visible and 90 uses the refraction so it's easier than 80

Master of Puppets
4th January 2007, 14:28
some people have a visibility difference between 80, 81 and 90. on my machine using 81 i can hardly see the alpha blended hidden at all. 80 is much more visible and 90 uses the refraction so it's easier than 80

hmm i use 81 too cause my comp cant handle 90 and i dont have problems seeing hidden... must try with 80 if it is any different... and to the fair play... as a mortal being when i join server i play a while pwng everyone... cant help my self... its fun to me and i play for fun. But after a while i calm down and i stop using nades at all... when that doesnt help i try to finish people with phys kills tho im not good at it... and when even that doesnt help i play pure phys. I think all it needs is more admins being present on servers more often...

Paegus
4th January 2007, 16:25
it's pretty dramatic http://forum.hidden-source.com/showthread.php?t=7160

Master of Puppets
4th January 2007, 18:17
it's pretty dramatic http://forum.hidden-source.com/showthread.php?t=7160

Interesting! I tryed playing in 80. Besides that it also changed all the other graphic settings i couldnt see the hidden :) it must be that im used to it but hell im lazy geting used to it :-P

Zabiela
4th January 2007, 21:19
it's pretty dramatic http://forum.hidden-source.com/showthread.php?t=7160

Ok, but you need to put what dx level it is under each picture. And wth! a white hidden?!
Id say the far right is 9, what I see. Middle would be 8 or 81, looks like 9 but the distortions are more blurred than sharp. And so is that white one 7?

Paegus
5th January 2007, 00:18
the picture names are kind of a give away. from left to right 70 80 and 90 if you're wondering. 81 looked exactly like either 70 or 90 i can't remember which.

Master of Puppets
5th January 2007, 02:02
the picture names are kind of a give away. from left to right 70 80 and 90 if you're wondering. 81 looked exactly like either 70 or 90 i can't remember which.

they looked like 70 cause i play on 81 :)

Demented
5th January 2007, 02:37
80 looks so much more sexier than 90.

-SM-SUCKER
5th January 2007, 15:55
80 looks so much more sexier than 90.
Not if you have a dx9 card :)

Back to the topic:
My first thought was that if someone wins 2 Hidden rounds he could be unable to see the hidden, giving some other guy the chance to become Hidden instead and this way give more people the chance to become the Hidden. But there is a bad 'worst case' : 2 good guys are on the server. One wins 2 rounds, gets "blinded" the next round. The other good guy is Hidden now, without real resistance because the first one is crippled.
But I do not see why we shouldn't change the game just so that I-play-to-win-guys will still have it their way. I understand that the game needs a good playercount, but are those the players we really need?

starstriker1
5th January 2007, 18:04
We don't try to enforce attitudes because it would be contrived and futile.

<Beatlemania>
5th January 2007, 18:57
yeah, edit got it right. i don't think they should do anything to make it easier for newbies. If they want to get better, they should find a random server or ovr (shudders). two options.

But people would always complain, I feel. For example, on some servers I'm superman over all the guys who've only played a couple of months. On other servers, with the veterans who've played since hidden came out and whatnot, I'm the newbie. Get my point:confused:

Felf
5th January 2007, 21:39
I think edit actually got it wrong; I'm completely not of the opinion that we shouldn't limit good players to make things more balanced. The trick is just not to tell anyone. I wouldn't object at all if this was done, so long as I didn't know; you'd just think you weren't playing as well as you were before, and it would make it more fun for newbies. I introduce alot of people to the game, and they all get annoyed when (if they finally do get hidden) good players spot them almost instantly. By having some sort of disadvantage for good players, we would make it more fun for new players. (and of course, since people don't know, it doesn't destroy the competativness tbh).

Also, you've gotta think about it like this: do you want to create a mod that has thousands and thousands of players, or do you want one that has a few less, but is ultimately more fun for it? Look at counterstrike; that has thousands of players and it's hard to find a server without at least one tosser on it. Hidden on the other hand (or at least back when i joined in the b2a days) had a very small player base, but the servers were always full of friendly people. I think by disadvantaging those who are good (so long as they're not too aware of it) you make the whole thing more fun. Just so long as it's not really obvious. A big "no" in this thread from a dev would just about do it, then implement, and never mention it in the change logs ;) :P

Master of Puppets
6th January 2007, 13:03
I think its everybodys personal think... i play so that new players get hold of the game too... cause i dont have much time to play this im pissed that sometimes i cant find populated server... so i try to give my know how as much as possible to the new players to make them better... just tell them how things work and they will find theyr way around eventualy...

edit°
6th January 2007, 14:15
I think edit actually got it wrong; I'm completely not of the opinion that we shouldn't limit good players to make things more balanced. The trick is just not to tell anyone. I wouldn't object at all if this was done, so long as I didn't know; you'd just think you weren't playing as well as you were before, and it would make it more fun for newbies. I introduce alot of people to the game, and they all get annoyed when (if they finally do get hidden) good players spot them almost instantly. By having some sort of disadvantage for good players, we would make it more fun for new players. (and of course, since people don't know, it doesn't destroy the competativness tbh).

Also, you've gotta think about it like this: do you want to create a mod that has thousands and thousands of players, or do you want one that has a few less, but is ultimately more fun for it? Look at counterstrike; that has thousands of players and it's hard to find a server without at least one tosser on it. Hidden on the other hand (or at least back when i joined in the b2a days) had a very small player base, but the servers were always full of friendly people. I think by disadvantaging those who are good (so long as they're not too aware of it) you make the whole thing more fun. Just so long as it's not really obvious. A big "no" in this thread from a dev would just about do it, then implement, and never mention it in the change logs ;) :P

I think all you'd really do is annihilate the fun for a lot of people who've been here since time began really. If you want to have the game with a friendly playerbase instead of a CS pbase you don't want to alienate the people who make servers friendlier and dickhead free. The PS pwnererer is something that you're going to have despite disadvantages because some people play the game enough that they will get the practise in.

I could talk specifics and ask how you'd stop this system kicking in for newer players who have a good couple of rounds (and how it would benefit them and not confuse them if you allow them to be targetted by this system) but its wasted breath becaaaaaaaaauuuuuuuuuuuussseeee:



Instead of trying to implement a system to target an attitude some (maybe most these days) players, including myself, don't find it fun to be around you should just get in the servers where the attitude isn't tollerated. Hardcoding anything to go with the trends of the players in this way is a grave mistake to make. From B2a you'll know, there wasn't any pressure on anyone to do anything other than spawn as hidden and make sure you PSed the IRIS in as quick a time as was humanly possible. Raping IRIS inside out EVERY round without any let-up or consideration for how they felt was just the done thing.

Nowadays a lot of the vets are of a different view - you'll notice, however, that [B]NONE of the newer players think like the vets, because winning is such a massive goal when you're first starting out. You see someone physing and it takes them a full round to do it you think, yeah nice one. The newbie who sees the person you're trying to cut out of the loop here killing all the IRIS in 23 seconds flat on stalkyard will be even more wow-ed, and said newbie will set his rolemodel to guess who... I know it was BA that impressed me, not someone giving me a chance :D After you gain the ability to consistently win, you do one of three things:

Admit to yourself : "Fair enough, I have fun knowing that I'm grinding my enemy into the ground and it doesn't bother me that they're having a shit time. I shall practise this until no one can beat me ((which really aint hard if you're putting the time in, save that head to bash against some other brick wall later))" as was the norm circa b2.

Get bored and leave - As a GREAT many have done. I needn't even bother to list some of the hidden 'celebs' who have fallen by the wayside since new ones popup overnight and are gone equally as quick :)

Find a different goal/way to have fun - As most of the euro-old farts among us have done (I can't speak for the american/aus playerbase). A lot of the fun now comes with physing and setting yourself very stringent and harsh disadvantages. Some of us are e-sadist enough that most of the time we put ourselves into situations where we know we will die and the only way we could possibly win is if the IRIS screw up. I personally will plan a course and stick to it, if the IRIS spot me and are guaranteed to kill me, fair enough - if not, they've screwed up and they'll get phys'd. The disadvantages are set slacker if I'm playing with other players who are also up for a good game TOGETHER instead of it being purely against each other in the "I vill pwn joo" way.

My own personal whims about how I play aren't really the point though. The point is that putting a system like this in place in an attempt to govern what, at least in europe on the servers with admin pressence, is becoming a minority of 'good' players is massively un-necessary and will ultimately be ineffective. The players who get their rocks off by ruining someones game by beating them are going to practise until they can do it regardless. Your suggested system only works therefore if you just make it mechanically impossible for them to beat the hidden - in which case (if you bare-bones it) you'll end up with a game that forces you to miss rounds if you win the ones before. :confused:

As you've said. The dev's could sneak this in, but I'm pretty confident it just won't happen as it is just a really, REALLY bad idea and we have a team not known for rushing into really big mistakes. The ideas behind it are fair enough:

"I don't want to play with someone who just wants to use me as intelligent target practise. I want to have fun with another human being somewhere"

But this sort of thing CANNOT be governed in hidden by any kind of mechanic without taking everything away that makes hidden what it is.

MiasmicAnomie
6th January 2007, 15:13
Its when im iris that I cant.... um.... "lower" my skill level. When I see the hidden, and most of the time hes in my FOV I do, its hard to not shoot him, to go easy you know. For example, lets say I just had the hidden for 3 rounds. Finally someone else has it, so i decide to take it easy for a couple rounds, but then as soon as the round starts, the hidden rushes me in a crouch pounced manner, and knife scooches me. I cant really do much but defend myself by spraying him with lead.


One thing I used to do when there were new guys in a server and I was helping them - I'd go pistol only.

It'd actually help them get better faster, because they'd have the instant feedback of 'that tactic got me shot' without being insta-pwned by the fn2000 - they've got a much better chance to effectively evade.

Picking the 303 is pretty ok, too, for those 'I don't want to run the server' situations.

--Miasmic, who feels silly talking about this as he's so out of practice he's not having 'I don't want to run the server' moments. ;)

edit°
6th January 2007, 15:18
--Miasmic, who feels silly talking about this as he's so out of practice he's not having 'I don't want to run the server' moments. ;)

I'm still coming out of that wierd zone as well after my absence :p When we get the test server sorted we can school each other back up with traps n dark maps n oooh... best be quiet in the public forums :D

Zabiela
6th January 2007, 20:52
...

I had tried that a couple times, but more than often the newbie hidden would just rush me and tripple slash, and considering the stopping power of those pistols... i'd die. Actually what works best is if i tell them before hand ill give them a little "training" session.

Handsome
13th January 2007, 10:08
I'm a noob, and i totally do not want to be advantaged or whatever.
There's another guy who's better than me on the server? Fine. i'll follow him or camera-chase him and watch @ what he do to understand why he is better . I play, and play and i'm already better than i was when i first started. I dont want to feel that the game is nice with me because i'm a noob. I'm kind of a proud guy, i dont want to be treated as a pussy.
I want to see the highest pik and try to climb to it.

Daedalus
13th January 2007, 10:11
I'm a noob, and i totally do not want to be advantaged or whatever.
There's another guy who's better than me on the server? Fine. i'll follow him or camera-chase him and watch @ what he do to understand why he is better . I play, and play and i'm already better than i was when i first started. I dont want to feel that the game is nice with me because i'm a noob. I'm kind of a proud guy, i dont want to be treated as a pussy.
I want to see the highest pik and try to climb to it.

You could try viewing some hidden gameplay demos.

Handsome
13th January 2007, 10:14
Will do! (yours, to begin with)