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View Full Version : Weapon limitations



skwiikki
3rd January 2007, 09:59
So i've been playing H:S for many weeks now and i have failed to ever find a
server without atleast 2 shotgunners and thats something thats been
bugging me... very much. And here comes the suggestion:

If I.R.I.S would have limited amount of wepons. like this:

FN2000 ASSAULT RIFLE 4 or 3
FN P90 3 or 3
REMINGTON 870 1 or 1
Less lethal 1 or 2

Pistols would be unlimited

it would really make the game much more fun to play because half of the
server would not be playing with shotguns, which because of the dread
hitboxlagbug almost always blasts the hidden low on hp.
and thats something not so funny

Paegus
3rd January 2007, 10:18
then people would 'fight' over the weapons.

and only 1 or 2 303s? that'll go down well...

edit°
3rd January 2007, 10:19
Limitting the less lethal would be a grave mistake. Theres a load of players who use it to give people some kind of chance. If I came into a server and someone already had the less lethal, I would be forced to use the p90 or the easymode (chances are the shotgun would be taken) which would mean that I'd have to 'look but not touch' with newer players just so they get enough of a chance to see what they're doing wrong.

Fine for a little while but it gets very old, I've tried it before.

"omg you cheater!"

"I've just been playing a while, as a sign of good faith let me 'shoot' you with the flashlight when I see you and explain how I could."

*stands in stalkers and sees the guy running straight at me. flash him up and give him a lesson in pouncing and hiding. Rinse and repeat 8 times, the final time being PSed whilst typing and then you're just about fed up enough that you rarely (if ever) want to do it again*

Less lethal means that with newer players you can get a shot off and the blur screws them up enough that they cant just keep running at you and kill you as though nothing had happened. So you can give them a chance, shooting one at a time. If you feel like it that is...

Paegus
3rd January 2007, 10:24
"I've just been playing a while, as a sign of good faith let me 'shoot' you with the flashlight when I see you and explain how I could."

cant well do that anymore though since the flashlight is purely client side now isn't it?

-SM-SUCKER
3rd January 2007, 11:09
Theres a load of players who use it to give people some kind of chance.
°edit hits me more often with his 303 than I hit some random guy with the assault rifle... It's almost like fighting a bhs guy! And I know he isn't cheating

edit°
3rd January 2007, 11:53
cant well do that anymore though since the flashlight is purely client side now isn't it?

zing, I didn't know :eek: Has it always been? I'm sure I remember using it to signal to other players in the past. I've had people flashing theirs back at me :confused:

Paegus
3rd January 2007, 11:58
as i recall it wasn't lighting things properly or something like that so it got cut to client-side only...

i started playing just after B3 came out (forum reg date) and have absolutely no memory of ever seeing another player shining a light on things and have never had anyone react to my flashing them.

skwiikki
3rd January 2007, 13:03
Okay i see u did not like the idea so what about this:

There would be a limitation of 3 in every weapon so only 3 ppl in the server could use the same weapon and of course the admin could modify these if wanted?

EmeralDragon
3rd January 2007, 13:43
as i recall it wasn't lighting things properly or something like that so it got cut to client-side only...

i started playing just after B3 came out (forum reg date) and have absolutely no memory of ever seeing another player shining a light on things and have never had anyone react to my flashing them.


I believe it was because of how goofy it looked. It lagged pretty bad behind what the player was actually doing. You'd see them turn left, then 1/2 a second later the light would turn left, lol.

Wish they could fix that properly. Would be nice atmospheric-wise to see other IRIS with their lights on, searching dark corridors. ;)

Paegus
3rd January 2007, 15:34
i dont recall the LAM having that problem... so... /shrugs

Ging
3rd January 2007, 16:02
LAM was done in a different way for some reason (I can't remember why anymore, something about how the flashlight worked)

starstriker1
3rd January 2007, 17:32
Bad idea. Just balance the weapons, and everyone is happy.

Also, allowing more f2000s than p90s? The f2000 is the overpowered one...

Oh, Ging. Wasn't the LAM done in such a way that the attached beam was mounted directly on the weapon model or something?

Daedalus
3rd January 2007, 18:06
Oh, Ging. Wasn't the LAM done in such a way that the attached beam was mounted directly on the weapon model or something?

I was wondering what happened to that effect...

wiggle987
3rd January 2007, 18:26
Personally I find the need for limited weapons highly frustrating, my machine isn't great so when a new map loads up the players with the fast comp systems choose the best weapons first whilst those of us without are stuck with crappy pea shooters.

It may sound silly but a practicle example would be that I rarely get to play with a sniper/mg in DOD:Source and it turns me off the game.

starstriker1
3rd January 2007, 18:54
Like I said, better to balance the weapons instead of limiting them. Limits like that generally suck unless you're playing clan matches, and this isn't a clan game...

Ging
3rd January 2007, 19:11
Oh, Ging. Wasn't the LAM done in such a way that the attached beam was mounted directly on the weapon model or something?

Yeah, sounds about right.

Fluffy
4th January 2007, 01:36
Yeah, sounds about right.

The LAM still lags slightly but it's not noticable. The issue with the flashlight was probably that the light was like the camera is now, it finds the new pitch, yaw, roll of the player and then re-orients itself to that point. That's why the LAM always lags slightly when in spectator mode...

Anyways, regarding the weapons... I say to get rid of the problem with the shotgun, drop its damage back down to 90, let people complain for a week, then shoot it back up to 100, then back down to 90... just complete the cycle over and over again... it seems like that's all people will ever see with that damn gun is what's wrong with it, whether overpowered or underpowered. I mean come on, if it was too weak before, why complain about it being too strong now? if one shot is not enough to kill the hidden but two shots is way too much, what the hell do you want us to do about it?!?! (there's just no happy medium is there?)

hell, we might as well get rid of the problem all togehter... scrap the shotgun and invest a few man hours in modelling that granade launcher I've always wanted :D

*EDIT*

Woo! my 500th post!!!!! WOOOO!!!

Paegus
4th January 2007, 02:01
i take it the flashlight code prevents it from being converted to the LAM system? since they're both technically coming from the weapon even though you can use the flashlight while holding a sonic alarm :eek:

starstriker1
4th January 2007, 03:18
Anyways, regarding the weapons... I say to get rid of the problem with the shotgun, drop its damage back down to 90, let people complain for a week, then shoot it back up to 100, then back down to 90... just complete the cycle over and over again... it seems like that's all people will ever see with that damn gun is what's wrong with it, whether overpowered or underpowered. I mean come on, if it was too weak before, why complain about it being too strong now? if one shot is not enough to kill the hidden but two shots is way too much, what the hell do you want us to do about it?!?! (there's just no happy medium is there?)

As I've said: it's not that it's too powerful. It's perfectly balanced. It's that it's annoying when you do die by it, particularily in one shot kills!

...the problem is that the weapon is far too reliant on luck and chance. Yes, a good player will tend to hit the hidden more, but it's still basically a roll of the dice as to how much damage you'll do in a hit.

One thing that should be done for it, regardless, is adding a predefined spread for it, instead of having it random. That way, it has predictable damage vs range, which'll make it a hell of a lot easier to balance. Many times, I've seen an inordinate amount of damage done at ranges the shotgun shouldn't be so lethal at, while other times such a shot would have yielded nothing.

If you wanted to change the stats of the weapon, I think there are two potential options:
1) Taster like version, with lower damage but a smaller spread. Don't confuse this with the B1 and B2 shotgun... the first edition shotgun, if I remember was about on par with the p90.
2) Same spread as we have now, but lower damage and higher fire rate. So yeah, there IS a happy medium. Make it take two shots, but give people a fire rate high enough to get those two shots in. If they have the time to make three shots between spotting their target attacking them and the hidden slashing them to death, that is ideal.

edit°
4th January 2007, 15:50
I think if you drop it back to 90 and make it faster firing you'd be making it even more overpowered. The onehit shotgun blast from full health isn't a common enough problem to solve like this. If it is, then I dare say its the person using it and that the person should either give you more of a chance or find some other 'WTFPWNERS' to play with. Its that simple really.

If someone wants to rape you with the p90, the assault rifle and yes its even getting there with the 303 - they will. As was so perfectly pointed out in the other thread by themorris, taking away slight advantages so slight would do absolutely nothing but make the players who want to be 'teh best' even bestererer. This rings true ESPECIALLY with the shotgun because the weapon itself isn't unfair until someone piggy-backs their skill with it to make your game shit. Newsflash : certain people are ALWAYS going to do this because what they get their enjoyment from is grinding you into the ground enough that you can't have fun. No competetive game can be made immune to these players because the only way to do it universally is by taking away the competition. The only barrier against them you have are admins who would rather play one way than theirs.

I don't mind being killed by someone who is lucky, but I dare say consistent luck might as well be called skill when you're hunting the inivisble man :p When your number one sense with regards to shooting (sight) is taken away, a lot of your kills come from an intuitive sense you build up from knowledge of the maps, your own tactics as hidden and your own judgement of probabilities. Ultimately you're playing the numbers unless you never lose track of the hidden. In this sense luck has to be the factor and I really don't mind having one weapon in the game that, whilst having the ability to yield the most damage in a single click, is a bit wild and open-ended.

starstriker1
4th January 2007, 16:28
You are absolutely right... the one shot kill isn't too prevalent. Most of the time, shotgun users are in fact less capable of fighting the hidden effectively than people with the automatics, which are arguably better suited for engaging the hidden at point blank. However, I still think that the unpredictable damage and potential for one hit kills requires a few tweaks.

At the very least, the spread should be made predictable so that you can at least count on a specific damage-range ratio. Whether or not anything else changes, we need to know that somebody 20 meters away isn't going to luck out and have all the buckshot land in a hidden shaped pattern.

I'd like it's one hit kill taken away, too... or limited to point blank only by taking the max damage to 100, or just over that, as opposed to the even larger potential damage already present. I don't mind a skillful marine filling a hidden with buckshot when they're wounded and taking them down from high health. After all, that happens all the time with the f2000 and p90... those weapons are damn good at filling a target with lead. However, those weapons do allow a hidden at full health a chance to react and save themselves from the killing blow... I think that having 100 health should mean that any hidden has a chance to save their asses after goofing up and getting blasted, even a slim one.

Its a game of 8 vs 1... you can't end it so fast for the most important player, or you're cheating everyone of the experience.

edit°
4th January 2007, 16:48
At the very least, the spread should be made predictable so that you can at least count on a specific damage-range ratio. Whether or not anything else changes, we need to know that somebody 20 meters away isn't going to luck out and have all the buckshot land in a hidden shaped pattern.

I don't mind the luck thing. It makes me think : "Ah ha! Shotgunner off the helm captain, best avoid". Its nice to be caught completely off-guard every now and then and even though I don't use the shotgun too much anymore, its nice to be pleasently surprised when something you thought couldn't go your way in a million years just... does :D [/QUOTE]



I'd like it's one hit kill taken away, too... or limited to point blank only by taking the max damage to 100, or just over that, as opposed to the even larger potential damage already present. I don't mind a skillful marine filling a hidden with buckshot when they're wounded and taking them down from high health. After all, that happens all the time with the f2000 and p90... those weapons are damn good at filling a target with lead. However, those weapons do allow a hidden at full health a chance to react and save themselves from the killing blow... I think that having 100 health should mean that any hidden has a chance to save their asses after goofing up and getting blasted, even a slim one.

Its a game of 8 vs 1... you can't end it so fast for the most important player, or you're cheating everyone of the experience.

I think that the shotgun gives a hidden who has just taken a thraping more chance to pounce away than the p90 which has enough ammo and a high enough rate of fire to just obliterate a hidden through spray. SG is the only weapon thats slow enough to allow most hidden who haven't been playing since B1 the chance to pounce away, especially if the shotgunner has camped long enough to lure the hidden into somewhere a little bit compact. The one hit kill is more of a nice surprise vs a hidden with full health than something to be expected. The only times you really get the onehit on a hidden is when hes running into you waiting for his PS animation to wind up. In situations like that - pretty much any gun would do the same job.

You remember the testing that led to the dmg of the shotgun as it is now just like I do. I really think we did the best job we can do last time :) This is getting more onto the fair play discussion than one of mechanics for me because I just can't see anything wrong with the Sgun when its used in the wrong hands

EmeralDragon
4th January 2007, 17:33
For what it's worth, here's my .02:

I used to agree somewhat with Star on the shotgun issue, but I've had a change of heart. I actually enjoy the extra element of challenge when dealing with a SG'er, and having such a "loose cannon" of a weapon is quite nice.

I like the shotgun as it stands now.

starstriker1
4th January 2007, 17:51
I'm not talking about fair play, here, I'm saying that a luck based weapon isn't fun to play against. And, whether its a fortunate spread pattern or a twitch induced shot to your side, the shotgun is a huge source of random effects.

And, by the way, while a luck weapon might be a nice change of pace for some vets, who are getting bored... the same is not true for everyone. I, for one, hate luck based mechanics in a game that is otherwise skill centric... there's room for chance, sure, but I want to be able to compensate for it by skill.

edit°
4th January 2007, 18:48
But you can make up for it will skill. Put two shotguners side by side, a vet and a newbie, the vet will hit more. Put two shotgunners vet or newbie both against 2 hiddens, vet and not and the vet hidden will survive better. In both instances the skilled player comes out better 90 times out of a hundred. The chance elements presented by the shotgun mean that no matter what your skill you can still be surprised the other 10 times, this works both ways. Sometimes a newbie will kill someone with it when they were in fact fully confident in their own inadequacy and sometimes a vet will miss when they were certain they'd hit. Sometimes a newbie hidden is sure they're dead and the Sgun will screw up, sometimes a vet will think they're guaranteed a kill and it will screw up.

Hyp-R
5th January 2007, 00:43
am I the only one that find shotguns pefectly fine?
I don't think they are cheap at all

When I'm hidden, it's way easier to kill people with shotgun IMO
because when they waste that first shot, i can slash em twice before they can even shoot again.

While the automatic gun (name escapes me, has a scope)
They can keep firing everywhere, and when you see blood when you hit him, sortof use that as a trackign guide

starstriker1
5th January 2007, 00:56
Who ever said anything about CHEAP? Hyp-R, I've said on countless occasion that the shotgun isn't unbalanced. That is not the case I am trying to make, here.

@ edit:

I'm just saying that the 1 time out of 100 that the hidden is doomed, no matter what he does, because of blind luck, is not good. Luck balancing both ways isn't really an excuse... when a player can aim in a certain direction from a great distance away and, because the stars have aligned for him, have all the pellets hit the same spot and blast the hidden, that's not good. Conversely, if he can fire at a spot and see the bullet holes make an outline on the wall suspiciously similar to the hidden's hitbox, thats not good either.

Even if the chance is so remote that it'll never be seen for gameplay, perception suffers. If people think a kill was unfair, even if it wasn't, thats a very bad thing. If they thought they should have made a hit and their luck ran out, same deal. If there is even a perception of luck being too prevalent with the weapon, then people will bitch when they miss or bitch when they get hit with it. And when people resort to bitching, they are generally not having fun.

Since the purpose of a game is to provide an entertaining experience, thats a failure of the games design.

The predictable spread I mentioned, at least, is reasonable as well as an improvement over the existing scheme, and there's really no good reason NOT to use it. No one is the wiser unless they look more closely than is probably healthy (and no one will know if the orientation of the pattern is shifted with each shot), and it makes the gun more easily controlled for balance.

Matto
5th January 2007, 01:04
I think that the shotgun being powerful enough to kill the hidden in one hit drains a lot of confidence from hidden players. Especially when they shoot the place you just left, but you are killed by lag. However if the 'lag' issue is fixed next beta, the shotgun may require no change.

starstriker1
5th January 2007, 02:39
That does set a lot of players off... hell, its annoying (but tolerable) with the f2000. I imagine there are some network settings that can be tweaked for that.

That said, the alternative is the huge amount of lag lead that we used to need, so I'd honestly prefer to deal with knowing the reaction time for my movement is off than the reaction time for my attacks.

QReaper
5th January 2007, 03:29
I think that the shotgun being powerful enough to kill the hidden in one hit drains a lot of confidence from hidden players. Especially when they shoot the place you just left, but you are killed by lag. However if the 'lag' issue is fixed next beta, the shotgun may require no change.

I blame the assbox.

starstriker1
5th January 2007, 03:32
...the assbox isn't buggy any more...

Kira Yamato
5th January 2007, 03:36
I think that the shotgun being powerful enough to kill the hidden in one hit drains a lot of confidence from hidden players. Especially when they shoot the place you just left, but you are killed by lag. However if the 'lag' issue is fixed next beta, the shotgun may require no change.

Hitbox lag is in all source engine games. It's because the idiots at valve tried to make the game 56k friendly. When in fact they had no idea what they were doing, made it less high ping friendly, and spawned the single worst error in multiplayer gaming history. Hitbox lag...

Demented
5th January 2007, 05:40
Defaulting certain prediction SVARs to off would be amusing in B5. Probably cause a bit of a fiasco too.

starstriker1
5th January 2007, 06:12
Kira, the hitboxes aren't that bad, and it has nothing to do with 56K friendliness... notice that when you shoot something on your screen you usually hit, with little need for lag lead. The hitbox lag is a consequence of that.

But lets not let this turn into a discussion of Valve's network implementation.

edit°
5th January 2007, 11:22
kk, before I start chasing my tail I'll state why we can't agree on this. You're saying the thing thats bad about the Sgun is the only thing that makes it viable to me as a 1shot-able weapon - the chance it will fuck up. I think without the 10% random screwup chance its just too dependable and too powerfull to boot. Ultimately I'd say if you want a dependable weapon, go p90 or AR.

starstriker1
5th January 2007, 17:59
The shotgun does not fuck up in the range where one hit kills are possible! :p

The spread isn't large enough at point blank to near point blank range. If you shoot somebody with it at that distance, they are dying.