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starstriker1
31st December 2006, 23:36
I had a thought. The marine radar can be removed outright, and replaced with what amounts to an aura view for the marines with different shaders and graphics. It would, of course, only see things that the radar could see. As an advantage, it requires no new keys. Just bind it to the same key as the hidden's aura view.

What I'm thinking this view mode would mean:
*Some kind of filter placed over the world that makes it very hard to see. It's not for navigation or tracking the hidden.
*Blips tracking all the marines, larger as one approaches. They'd be shapeless... you'd have no way of telling if the marine was alive or dead prior to letting go of the vision key.
*You'd also have blips showing sonic placement as well as when they're going off.
*Potentially, you could add in new markers that are tied to the voice binds. A "hidden spotted" message, for instance, could place a marker on the map that this view mode can pick up.
*Objectives in HEX could be marked in this view

I thought it might be a nice way to make the radar more useful, as well as more elegantly integrated into the interface. As it is, it's just a piece of the HUD that takes up a lot of real estate.

Zabiela
31st December 2006, 23:45
Once again, idea machine makes another great one. I like it. Would help to organize teamwork in a 3d space alot better than with the overhead map. It also ties in realy well with the hex objectives.

edit: and minimal hud ftw.

Demented
1st January 2007, 00:18
I rather enjoy the distinction between IRIS and the Hidden. The Hidden relies on an enhanced form of his vision to see the IRIS. The IRIS, however, have to rely on a radar device in order to locate their teammates.

Equipping it as a weapon might be a good way to get it off the HUD.
Of course, to keep your protests off, it would be left off the weapon buckets and instead accessed through a hotkey.

Paegus
1st January 2007, 01:39
i think this has come up before... vaguely dystopia styled with positions and such displayed onscreen

http://forum.hidden-source.com/showthread.php?p=96583&highlight=Dystopia#post96583 ?

Ging
1st January 2007, 03:57
I'd rather it be an always on thing, though as unobstrusive as possible.

starstriker1
1st January 2007, 04:27
I think there's a problem there. If its always on, it's either radar (which is quite limited and takes up a lot of screen real estate) or it's markers on the screen, which I worry are a negative for immersion and possibly distracting when trying to fight the hidden. You could get rid of some of the distraction it provides by severely limiting the scale and variety of information presented, but then it becomes harder to comprehend with speed or accuracy.

I confess, I'm a really big fan of getting rid of as much of the HUD as possible unless it's absolutely necessary, and cutting out the radar would be a huge step in that regard.

One bonus of sticking it to the aura button (instead of just having it on constantly) is that you can show a lot more information without it being intrusive or distracting. That'd be a great way to promote teamplay. Knowing where your allies are, what they're covering, and where they're going certainly helps the IRIS to move in unison and lock down an area better. On top of that, there's also the matter of training new players. Often, they don't know about the aura key at all, so making it part of the marine playstyle would reinforce it's importance.

Felf
1st January 2007, 10:16
One thing...

Something that I think really contributes to the game and the "fear factor" for newbies is no knowing how many of your team mates are alive (hence no death notices). If you could just look around and instantly see them, it'd take that away.

Paegus
1st January 2007, 14:22
the displays would most likely not include any health information just that "there's a iris radio in that direction at this signal strength"

i think i like the idea of having it made into an equipment module like the flashlight or a supply-class only ability like rearming. then you can have it on or off as you please.

i'm a little ambiguous as to having it always on though. granted it could just be a contact lens or an Aliens IR monocle styled thingy. if the range is kept to that of the current radar then i suppose it would be doable as an always on thing since there would be little screen clutter. but the range should really be effected by line of sight. if you have a clear line to the source the signal would spike. the more wall it's behind the weaker it is. and lets face, most maps aren't really big enough to justify having enough signal attenuation to prevent pickup especially if they can still transmit normal radio messages through it all.
idk... we'll have to wait and see how it pans out gameplay-wise i guess.

Skyrider
1st January 2007, 16:55
While the idea does sound cool, I'm a much bigger fan of the hidden being able to pick up IRIS radios and appear as an IRIS blip on the radar. It just has such potential to mess with people. :D

starstriker1
1st January 2007, 17:03
While the idea does sound cool, I'm a much bigger fan of the hidden being able to pick up IRIS radios and appear as an IRIS blip on the radar. It just has such potential to mess with people. :D

Why couldn't he do that with this system?

Ging
1st January 2007, 17:20
He could...

My thinking of having this "always on" would be that the 'boxes' would be dimmed to nearly the point of invisible - use of the aura key would then bring them up into focus and make them highly visible.

Though I'm still not completely sure about the mechanics behind it.

khu
1st January 2007, 18:41
Something like this could also play into further enhancing the support class simply by controlling the amount of tactical info given to each class.

Imagine if the sound enhancement and other tactical information becomes enabled only for support class personnel with the 303, for example. Then we truly build up the support class into a 'information/intelligence' class that supplies the rest of the squad with intelligence while Assault class still provides the firepower. Support's role would then be to keep everyone topped up with ammo while trying to track and hit 617 with a 303 and increasing the Assault class' chances of a kill.

starstriker1
1st January 2007, 23:41
He could...

My thinking of having this "always on" would be that the 'boxes' would be dimmed to nearly the point of invisible - use of the aura key would then bring them up into focus and make them highly visible.

Though I'm still not completely sure about the mechanics behind it.

That sounds like a good idea, though even with near invisibility the amount of information should be limited to teammate positions without the aura key being pressed.

Fluffy
2nd January 2007, 00:06
I very much like the idea, but to make it a little less "push to view" and a little more "always on" without cluttering the space would be to put essencials like blips in 3d space that are radio commands that will flash (50% translucent sprites, maybe an orange triangle outline with an orange "!" in the middle of it and maybe a circle sprite perpendicular to the lowest point in an IRIS's model similar to the click option you saw in starcraft) and you can also view the players name, a little mock "heart beat monitor" that displays green, orange, or red (dependent on the health) and also the number of full clips they carry.

The alternate option would be to do a full on "3d radar" by pushing the key bound to the hidden's aura view. This shows you the other player's positions (a little circular beeping/animated sprite that's located at the point of the model's head, whether the player is dead or not. Gibbed bodies do not appear). To avoid letting players use this mode all the time maybe you can use something like a 10% translucent full screen overlay that blocks vision of everything but the hud sprites. This will also remove all other hud elements.

This should keep the hud clutter free until IRIS aura is enabled (can be enabled while player is moving since visibility is almost completely obstructed?) but should still allow the player to view important things like player name and ammo amount without the aura being enabled (although ammo count can be disabled until aura is enabled so that you can see who needs ammo and where they need it in the map?)

P.S. - Ging, leave the boxes out of it... I'd rather just have a single blip like the heart beat locators in Red Faction 2... (if anyone remembers the scopes used for that rail gun? I'll try to find a screenshot to show you later)

Ging
2nd January 2007, 00:21
I have no idea what you mean by the Red Faction 2 or Starcraft references. (I've played both, but I do my best not to remember much of either)

In all honesty, I have little idea as to what you were trying to describe - not a lot of it made much sense to me.

Paegus
2nd January 2007, 00:39
as far as red faction goes i think he's referring to being able to target people through the walls with the rail gun.

but isn't health info being relayed a no-no as it would utterly kill the suspense of not knowing if that particular blip moving around oddly is a living teammate or not? if it's just a radio transponder then no directional or health info needs be included.

though if the spectator views are ever to include such information the two points would conflict. if HQ can receive this info why can't this overlay gear pick it up as well?

Ging
2nd January 2007, 00:50
Bad for morale...

Fluffy
2nd January 2007, 04:27
I have no idea what you mean by the Red Faction 2 or Starcraft references. (I've played both, but I do my best not to remember much of either)

In all honesty, I have little idea as to what you were trying to describe - not a lot of it made much sense to me.

Well, I'm a little bit toasted tonight (rough week) so I probably dont make sense until I proof read something like 10 times but I'll do my best to clearify...

In starcraft, you know how you click the ground and move the curser (usually right-click), there's a little green circle that grows from the center of where you clicked outward and then fades. (usually hard to see unless you pay attention i guess) Making something like this appear on a larger scale at the players feet could show the point that the player "walks on" when they make a radio command.

Red Faction 2 has a similar effect for the railgun but as a 2d sprite on the HUD. (remember the original was overpowered because you could literally see the player through the wall. it was basically identical to a wallhack. To solve this issue they made a "heartbeat monitor" in RF2 where you can only see a sprite where a players heart was.) Basically, where the player's heart would be is a light blue dot with similar circles growing from the center out. (matching blips with a "heartbeat"). Using the same type of sprite on the hud at the players head can show where the player's headcam is and simulate some sort of 3D tracking system for when the Marine Aura is used.

Maybe using something like this could help out instead of using boxes around a player... (i really dont like those boxes)

starstriker1
2nd January 2007, 04:42
Ah.

He means that instead of surrounding a marine with a box, ala dystopia, a simple sprite over some location on the marine's body (model center, maybe) is all that's required.

Fluffy
2nd January 2007, 04:46
Ah.

He means that instead of surrounding a marine with a box, ala dystopia, a simple sprite over some location on the marine's body (model center, maybe) is all that's required.

exactly. Sorry for the confusion. Think of an approach more like how dystopia uses the sound triangulators (or however it's spelled) where there are rotating triangles appearing where an alpha'd model's feet touch the ground. You mark the point, not the model.

I'd prefer marking the player's headset camera or radio since it seems like you can actually track a person "electronically" from those devices. Plus, it might be a "moment of realization" for a player who links it when they switch between marine aura and normal view while looking at another player... it's always an "omg.. so that's why it's like that!" moment that makes a player feel good.

Demented
2nd January 2007, 05:18
It still seems too much like a retooled Hidden Vision made for the IRIS. It's identical, functionally.

Paegus
2nd January 2007, 11:08
sorta...
http://www.webwarphole.com/CDG/HUD/sonar_01.2.gif (http://www.fpsbanana.com/guis/1293)
...-ish?

yeah that would be nice.

Fluffy
2nd January 2007, 17:42
Sort of something like that, I dont know if I can find a better pic showing what I mean, But that's very close to it. The only thing I dont like is the second darker green circle on the outside, maybe just one ring from inside out and then have it fade much faster. The darker ring kind of seems distracting, But that's what I was talking about for putting at the bottom of the feet of the IRIS when calling out radio commands...

Maybe you could use two sprites for each IRIS though. One showing heart beat patterns (normal and green for good health, a little faster and orange for medium health, and fast and red for very badly hurt) This could take over the health bar and could make it easier to see what health a player is at without the unrealistic "20% health" thing... The other can show a sort of "radio frequency" around the IRIS's headcam. This can almost show player orientation if done right. You can only see heartbeats when in sight of the IRIS so you cant tell if they're dead from across the map? This might be a cool addition...

Daedalus
2nd January 2007, 18:12
The second darker circle is because the image is not transparent. It's meant to be on a black background. It's just a green one pulsing out.

Anyway, I wouldn't like it if you'd see everyone's health. Like people already said it's just a tag that tracks position, not health and other stuff. Showing their health would give away how many people are left. Why not just add show who's dead on the scoreboard then?

However one of those red/orange/green heartbeat sprites would be nice if they would be added instead of the 0-100 health stat. That would make IRIS think twice about jumping off that ledge. It would also add a bit of realism (not that this game is realistic) :D. If you're green you could jump off without much worry, but if you're slashed, bloody and hurt you're not sure if you could make that jump without breaking something or landing on your head.

Fluffy
2nd January 2007, 22:56
Anyway, I wouldn't like it if you'd see everyone's health. Like people already said it's just a tag that tracks position, not health and other stuff. Showing their health would give away how many people are left. Why not just add show who's dead on the scoreboard then?

Exactly why i said that you can only see the heartbeat monitor if the player model is directly visible and if you're holding down the Aura key. Other than this you can see Helmet Location, (color of helmet sprite determine support/assault?) and maybe also whether or not the player requests ammo? I bet you can mark the info in the sprites in a cool way... I'll try to make a simple "basic function" image set to show what I was talking about...

Paegus
2nd January 2007, 23:10
well that's actually an old style CSS radar. supposed to be alpha blended (which you can see if you click on it). the gif conversion screwed it up.

Fluffy
3rd January 2007, 00:18
This is sort of what I meant for showing some of the stuff (the stuff that I didnt explain so clearly the first time) that I thought could make this work for this type of thing...

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/8906/irishudaura2dw3.th.jpg (http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=irishudaura2dw3.jpg)

The Marine Locator sprites can be seen from anywhere in the map and appear something like a bluish color maybe? This will "pulse" kind of like the radar image posted before.

The heart monitors can only be shown if you can directly see the marine (kind of like the sprites used for lights. You can only see them if you can directly see the light itself). The heart monitor will either be green, orange, or red, depending on the health of the marine. This sprite will pulse at a "normal" rate of a heart when green, A little bit faster when orange, and considerably fast and eratically when red. (hastened heart rate)

The green circle and orange "!" are used when a radio command is used. The green circle appears whether Marine Aura is activated or not. It only runs an animation of two to three circles originating, growing from the center, and fading. The orange "!" can be seen as long as the aura key is held down but ranges in duration depending on the radio command used. If the "Requesting Ammo" command is used, the triangle will be a light blue and will have the same three-bullet sprite in the middle of it as the one used in the current build. This can also only be seen as long as Aura is activated...

ProgrammedToConsume
3rd January 2007, 00:29
i like it, could bother noobs when their health is low, the idea of seeing their heart move fast would either: 1) encourage people to be more careful, or 2) make them a little more erratic or so to speak in their play

Fluffy
3rd January 2007, 00:47
i like it, could bother noobs when their health is low, the idea of seeing their heart move fast would either: 1) encourage people to be more careful, or 2) make them a little more erratic or so to speak in their play
Well you cant actually see your own "heart beat", only the heart beats of everyone else around you. The faster the heart beats the more noticable it is and hopefully it draws your attention saying "careful, shoot me and I can slay you"

I think the marine view should have a deep blue color to it with the marines in view being a lighter, almost white color...

I was also thinking that while the marine aura view is activated, any shooting will result in the screen running static across it (since you're looking through a camera and it's being shaken up)

ProgrammedToConsume
3rd January 2007, 01:02
this would add to the fear of a noob playing. when i was talkign about "seeing your own heart beating" i meant to replace the health bar with that. and the static on the aura sounds reasonable

Fluffy
3rd January 2007, 01:04
ahh... I got it now.

The only problem is that we've tried to convince Ging to add a heart rate monitor with three patterns (red, orange, green) for a while, but he doesnt seem to want to budge... Thing is, the heart rate monitor has always been an idea for the hud displaying your own health, but we've never mentioned putting a marine aura like this before. The only reason I'm saying that we should add the heart rate monitors now is so that we can eliminate this "50%" or "100%" bull crap. Something about that just doesnt seem realistic. Besides, I dont want to see a players name AND their health in a % when I line up on them unless I'm going to try to team wound them... That's the only reason you need it in a percentage...

Paegus
3rd January 2007, 01:41
if the heartbeat monitor is a visible light or near-infrared strobe then technically speaking the hidden can't see it anyway since he's not really using his eyes. but implementing it properly would be eyebrow raising to say the least. i can't imaging liking a seizure inducing series of flashes so it would need to be near infrared... just outside of human vision but still in the range of your average camcorder (and thus the spectator cameras?)

and i'm sorry but i am in no way a fan of having player model orientation relayed which is what that green 'ground' sprite and the separate heart beat sprite would effectively do.

for gameplay's sake i'd do away with the normal crosshairs-over name/health readout and have the transponder sprite saying "something's here" rather faintly. when you press the aura button it would be displayed more brightly and their name would print out by the sprite, or if it's a sonic alarm it would say STA (with or without the planter's name attached). when you're in line of sight and pressing the aura button it comes up with the name and the transponder sprite changes to whatever colour matches their health. so if you can't see the torso of the corpse you can't see the health.

Fluffy
3rd January 2007, 01:48
if the heartbeat monitor is a visible light or near-infrared strobe then technically speaking the hidden can't see it anyway since he's not really using his eyes. but implementing it properly would be eyebrow raising to say the least. i can't imaging liking a seizure inducing series of flashes so it would need to be near infrared... just outside of human vision but still in the range of your average camcorder (and thus the spectator cameras?)

and i'm sorry but i am in no way a fan of having player model orientation relayed which is what that green 'ground' sprite and the separate heart beat sprite would effectively do.



Uhh... this was about IRIS using something similar to "aura"... not about additions to the hidden's aura...

The heart beat monitor i guess can be explained as a device that recieves signals from each IRIS member's helmet/radio system showing what the member's heartbeat is, then it displays it on the HUD?... I dont know... but it seems like something Infinitum could have researched...

The green circle thing was just an idea... i was thinking that it could appear quickly and then after it's animation sequence it dissapears. It's just supposed to show where the player was when the radio command was made. Other than that though, I get the feeling that the single "!" over the head could be enough if you activate aura to see where... I like the idea of showing the name of who placed what alarms when you look at it though.

I dont know if anyone knows what I'm talking about, but you know the menu for the original xbox? All the menu topics sort of "revolved" around the xbox logo as you scrolled up and down. what about doing something similar to this when looking at alarms/players/bodies in marine aura? as you move the camera around the text displayed can move around the object in a similar fashion...

Paegus
3rd January 2007, 02:04
oh rly??

i only mentioned the hidden because if the heartbeat monitor was a visible light thing then the hidden might have been able to see it strobing so wouldn't have had to use his aura to see what their health level was.



as for radio messages, just have the transponder sprite pulse brighter for a few seconds with the player's name printed because the signal spiked then fade slowly back to normal over a longer duration.

health on request is indeed something that they could and probably should have researched but surely you can see how it would kill the suspense of not knowing if that blip is alive or not.

Fluffy
3rd January 2007, 02:09
I intended for the heart beat monitor, marine locator, and green circle to be something only visible on the marine's aura (all sprites - kind of like the green/orange/red glow that you see when you hit aura for the hidden...) The orange "!" might be good to have visible for a few seconds even without aura, but you shouldnt be able to see a players name or health unless you're in the same room as them...

starstriker1
3rd January 2007, 04:02
I've always been in favour of anything that removes unneeded numerical information, like health, from the HUD.

Skyrider
3rd January 2007, 05:05
Something like this could also play into further enhancing the support class simply by controlling the amount of tactical info given to each class.

Imagine if the sound enhancement and other tactical information becomes enabled only for support class personnel with the 303, for example. Then we truly build up the support class into a 'information/intelligence' class that supplies the rest of the squad with intelligence while Assault class still provides the firepower. Support's role would then be to keep everyone topped up with ammo while trying to track and hit 617 with a 303 and increasing the Assault class' chances of a kill.

It might be interesting if the support class were the ONLY ones that had access to this ability.

I'm just worried about giving the players too much information and if it would pull them out of the game's atmosphere. Guess it depends on what's scarier, not knowing if you're the last guy left, or knowing you are.

I'm not a big fan of the idea of removing the health readout from the HUD anymore though. Ever since I started playing Halo and CoD on my friend's xbox, I've found that to be one of the more annoying aspects of those games. It's nice to be able to simply glance at the corner and know exactly where you stand in regards to survival.

starstriker1
3rd January 2007, 07:23
I'm not saying get rid of it entirely, just get rid of the numbers. Instead, have something like a heart monitor down there. When damaged, the frequency increases and the colour shifts from green to red (hopefully in a gradient).

Fluffy
4th January 2007, 01:26
some form of gradient would be nice... maybe shifts a shade in color every 10%?

starstriker1
4th January 2007, 03:03
Or, you know, a simple mathematical shift between two or three predefined colours. :P

Paegus
4th January 2007, 10:39
sorta like...

a nice smooth gradient from 100%http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/204/aurabarwf6.jpg0% health would be neato too.
...?

i think having it mirror the hidden's aura (green, orange, red only) would be fitting and would add a degree of uncertainty to the whole thing. can i jump from there and spend the 5hp or not?

starstriker1
4th January 2007, 14:24
Either way would be fine, I suppose. Anything is better than the numbers...