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Euphoria
10th December 2006, 17:30
This may have been addressed before (though I couldn't find it in the first search page, apart from where I posted it before in a different thread) but the fn2000 seems too powerful with a four shot kill at any distance and enough ammo to spray, like an uber p90.

Any chance of it gettingtoned down?

waRp^
10th December 2006, 17:35
1/4 of my shots dont get registered so i would hate see this

Paegus
10th December 2006, 19:29
1/4 of my shots dont get registered so i would hate see this
^^ (<-- because i need 2 characters)

though with my loss and the resulting choke, that 1/4 is more like 5/4. there was talk of making it semi-automatic. and while the idea is nice, with the netcode as borked as it is, i think i'd rather they not.

Daedalus
10th December 2006, 19:35
but the fn2000 seems too powerful with a four shot kill at any distance and enough ammo to spray, like an uber p90.

Meh, these days I need 5-6 shots to kill a 100hp hidden, and even then I get tons of nonregs.

Or I just get the hidden to 2 hp, then he runs off and gets killed by someone else, leaving me as IRIS again next round. :rolleyes:

waRp^
10th December 2006, 19:57
paegus i meant that after 4 shots to hidden I hit like once. (maybe not acsactly but it feels like) So your 5/4 doesn't realy make sence :D unless you hit him 5 times in 4 shots :p

Fluffy
10th December 2006, 20:17
paegus i meant that after 4 shots to hidden I hit like once. (maybe not acsactly but it feels like) So your 5/4 doesn't realy make sence :D unless you hit him 5 times in 4 shots :p



Fluffy, Destroyer of Worlds killed waRp^ with f2000

Damage Given
-----------------------------
You did 126 damage to waRp^ in 2 shots
-----------------------------
:cool:

Isolation
10th December 2006, 21:20
Well, that explains those all-too-often occasions where someone shoots me once and I'm down to 41 HP whilst 617...

Kira Yamato
10th December 2006, 22:47
The source engine likes to allow weapons to do a lot more damage then they're supposed to. I was playing heavy in Dystopia, full health, full armor got hit in the chest with a single bolt, and died. Then there is always the fun of getting hit with a falling pallet and losing 50+ health as the hidden.

Mr. Bottomhat
10th December 2006, 22:57
It's funny when you paint a whole wall with blood and not a single hit register. Even if the FN2000 is the god of all weapons I hate being hit by shotties so much I'd rather not have their competition decline.

Demented
10th December 2006, 23:11
The source engine likes to allow weapons to do a lot more damage then they're supposed to. I was playing heavy in Dystopia, full health, full armor got hit in the chest with a single bolt, and died. Then there is always the fun of getting hit with a falling pallet and losing 50+ health as the hidden.

Dystopia gives headshots for those bolts. It's enough to kill a Light in one hit, I think. Headshots have always been funky in Source games. Not so bad in games where 80% of the weapons can't do headshots.

Edit:
In your case, it was probably the combination of a bolt gun hit and maybe a headshot from the heavy rifle that mediums use.
The damage in Source is very consistent, when you're not getting hit by physics objects.

Kira Yamato
10th December 2006, 23:35
Well the bolt is a phys object isn't it?
The Light was the only guy in sight, and when you take a head shot it tears your head off, my head was still on.

Demented
10th December 2006, 23:54
As far as I know, things like crossbow bolts, FN303 pellets and bolt gun bolts have no collision. They touch your hitbox and disappear as you take the weapon damage.

Kira Yamato
11th December 2006, 00:03
Then how come cross-bow bolts, and Dys bolts can stick you to a wall if they kill you?

Paegus
11th December 2006, 00:13
paegus i meant that after 4 shots to hidden I hit like once. (maybe not acsactly but it feels like) So your 5/4 doesn't realy make sence :D unless you hit him 5 times in 4 shots :p

you said that 1/4 of you shots miss. you fire 4 times and hit 3 with 1 shot missing. i'm saying that if i fire 4 times i miss 5. the humorous implication being that i my hit reg is REALLY REALLY bad...

Ging
11th December 2006, 00:18
Then how come cross-bow bolts, and Dys bolts can stick you to a wall if they kill you?
Because when they hit, they spawn a client side effect - in the case of the crossbow code, it effectively 'pins' the client side ragdoll to the location the bolt hit.

It destroys the server side bolt on impact while calling the damage function, with a bit of logic to check distance to walls and things to decide if it should pin or not - but once it's hit, any remaining effect is pure client side.

Kira Yamato
11th December 2006, 00:29
I guess that makes sense. It is easier on the hardware then spawning phys object every time you shoot your gun I suppose.

Still with the same gun I an get vastly differing damages from time to time.

Edit: Also, non-destroyable phys objects never go away too. So yeah that way is much easier on the hardware.

waRp^
11th December 2006, 11:43
you said that 1/4 of you shots miss. you fire 4 times and hit 3 with 1 shot missing. i'm saying that if i fire 4 times i miss 5. the humorous implication being that i my hit reg is REALLY REALLY bad...

damn i realy suck at making sentences:)

Euphoria
11th December 2006, 15:57
So is the general feeling that because a lot of the shots are non reg they would rather keep the fn2000 as it is?

waRp^
11th December 2006, 16:23
in my opinion yes. But it isnt my disition

Isolation
11th December 2006, 20:51
I still think a change to Semi-auto would be for the best. Keeping something broken is never the right way to go.

Kira Yamato
11th December 2006, 21:16
Well Iso think of it this way. If you make the FN 2000 harder to use, more people will switch to the Shotty.

Isolation
11th December 2006, 21:21
Both are just as annoying for me... people with the 2000 seem to get more "after the fact" kills than those firing the shotgun. In fact, I find the shottie annoying, but I actually fear the 2000 since I can't accurately predict it.

Kira Yamato
11th December 2006, 21:24
Both are just as annoying for me... people with the 2000 seem to get more "after the fact" kills than those firing the shotgun. In fact, I find the shottie annoying, but I actually fear the 2000 since I can't accurately predict it.

Pounce, pounce, and pounce some more. Because the FN 2000 tends to be inaccurate as hell at most ranges, and by the time you hit them you can be gone before they fire. Also keep in mind that people tend not to shoot towards to the ground at first. Just land next to them, crouch, slash, and pounce up and away from their line of fire.

Isolation
11th December 2006, 21:31
Look closely at the "after the fact" part. I'll be in mid pounce, above their heads and behind them, they fire at where I was and manage to get hits in. THC was in the same game when that kept happening.

Since the shotgun can't really be sprayed, there is always a moment when you know they can't fire, which makes it easier to kill Shottie users.

Paegus
12th December 2006, 00:01
that's latency compensation screwing the pooch... and not actually a problem with the f2000. 'fixing' it to lessen the lag-shots is fixing the wrong thing. and besides even in semi-auto it wont be like the shotgun. players can still pound the fire button and get a high rof.

i think the default sv_maxunlag is 0.5s (500ms) or even worse 1.0s (1000ms). it should be more like 0.1s (100ms) which is usually the max ping allowed. but even that wont fix everything until 56k-friendliness is made into a cvar... sv_dailupcompatibility 0/1 ftw! or better... canned completely.

starstriker1
12th December 2006, 00:37
I've stated my position already: BOTH the F2000 and the shotgun need rebalancing, as both of them are well out of line with the balanced position provided by the p90.

I think the f2000 should be made semi auto with slightly reduced damage. It'd retain its accuracy and effectiveness at long range without the absurd danger level at close range it currently holds. At the very least, the loss of automatic fire should make the spraying less dangerous.

I also think that the shotgun needs to be rethought. Its not unbalanced byb any stretch of the imagination... in many ways, it's a less effective weapon than the p90. However, the one shot kills, on the rare occasion that they do happen, always seem to give the impression of luck rather than marksmanship, and irritate a great many people because of that.

My preference would be a faster firing, lower damage variation on the weapon. It'd be a bit more like the other weapons (making it easier to balance), yet would still have an obvious focus on close range and be recognizable as a shotgun type weapon.

Isolation
12th December 2006, 00:39
Well, changing it to semi-auto is not so much a fix for the lag, but to prevent the current glut of bullet spammers. Even if lag was not an issue, making the 2000 semi-auto would help off-set it's power.

starstriker1
12th December 2006, 00:46
Well, changing it to semi-auto is not so much a fix for the lag, but to prevent the current glut of bullet spammers. Even if lag was not an issue, making the 2000 semi-auto would help off-set it's power.

Which is part of the reason I suggested it. Even when someone is firing a semi auto gun (in a game, at least) at the same rate as the automatic setting, you get a remarkably different style of aiming.

Isolation
12th December 2006, 00:52
Did not see your previous post... must have been posting at the same time. I've always agreed with the 2000/Shotgun changes you suggested.

Kira Yamato
12th December 2006, 01:40
I don't know what kind of servers you play on, but I often find my self making a one shot with the shottie, which is how a shotgun is supposed to work. Also at any range the shotgun suddenly becomes a useless, and I often find my self switching to the pistol to peg the hidden from a long range.

starstriker1
12th December 2006, 01:50
Its not that it's unbalanced, it's that its irritating and disruptive. It is usually, if not always, perceived as luck, and it is particularily noticable when it takes advantage of hitbox lag.

The shotgun needs changing.

Matto
12th December 2006, 07:30
I agree, something has do be done about the shotgun. I don't know what, but it seems overpowered to me. Although it's use is the fact that it can kill in one hit at melee range, I think it should be a rare occasion that the hidden is killed in one hit.

Idea: Increase the number of pellets, decrease the damage each one does. The maximum damage possible would be 100 (maybe 101 to make sure ;) )
This would make it so if all the pellets hit the hidden would be killed. You could also increase the spray, so that the chance of a 1 hit kill is decreased, only direct hits would kill the Hidden in one shot.

I think the f2000's kickback decreased significantly for the first few shots, making controlled fire (burst fire) a good option. You should be able to shoot about three shots in roughly the same place and medium-long range, but after that inaccurate. It should be a weapon used to take out the hidden at medium to long range, not a close quarters spray weapon.

Zabiela
12th December 2006, 08:36
Hitbox lag is the worst thing about any hl2 multiplayer game, and its REALLY bad, like, really sucks. REally, like alot, really.

Cheesey
12th December 2006, 11:07
Yeah! Hitboxlag (HBL) is really anoying! It's so odd. One time, I hit the IRIS, pounced straight into the air while looking down to the IRIS I just hit. He shot the air where I have been. Then I saw some blood out of the air and suddenly I was dead. I've JUST SEEN ME GETTING KILLED ON A PLACE WHERE I HAD BEEN BEFORE. Just hate it! :( :mad:

I also agree. The shotgun is rather balanced BUT it's just too easy to get a luckshot with it. It should be a powerful infight-weapon, cause it sucks by shooting distanced objects. So maybe the it should just do a max. damage of 90HP. So he has to get 2 luckshots to kill 617 ;)

Ging
12th December 2006, 11:58
Ye gods, welcome to the world of you can't please everyone - if we alter the shotgun, people will complain, if don't alter the shotgun, people will complain...

I'll keep the shotgun as is rather than have it reduced to what it was - which is essentially what a lot of people are talking about here.

Cheesey
12th December 2006, 12:03
Ye gods, welcome to the world of you can't please everyone - if we alter the shotgun, people will complain, if don't alter the shotgun, people will complain...

I'll keep the shotgun as is rather than have it reduced to what it was - which is essentially what a lot of people are talking about here.

I'm fine with that! :) There always will be ppl who are complaining. :( No magical solution to stop that, yet ;).

But it would be really nice if Valve could do something about this damn HBL!

Daedalus
12th December 2006, 15:14
Look closely at the "after the fact" part. I'll be in mid pounce, above their heads and behind them, they fire at where I was and manage to get hits in. THC was in the same game when that kept happening.

Simple fix. Jump near them, crouch-pounce straight up, the milisecond after that slash him.

No way they can react to that unless they know you're there. :D

Paegus
12th December 2006, 16:03
omg lag-hax!

i'll need to up my mouse sensitivity before trying that...

starstriker1
12th December 2006, 16:45
Ye gods, welcome to the world of you can't please everyone - if we alter the shotgun, people will complain, if don't alter the shotgun, people will complain...

I'll keep the shotgun as is rather than have it reduced to what it was - which is essentially what a lot of people are talking about here.

No one wants to go back to having a useless shotgun, all I'm saying is that it should get the same damage per shot. Fire rate would have to increase to compensate. I wouldn't be surprised if the weapon became more effective with such changes.

The one shot kills don't lend themselves to much but luck and grumbling. Overpowered it isn't, but when those kills DO happen, it's not fun. If the hidden could respawn (as in overrun) then it's perfectly fine, but dying in an instant is a real turn off when you only have one life!

Kira Yamato
12th December 2006, 16:59
No one wants to go back to having a useless shotgun, all I'm saying is that it should get the same damage per shot. Fire rate would have to increase to compensate. I wouldn't be surprised if the weapon became more effective with such changes.

The one shot kills don't lend themselves to much but luck and grumbling. Overpowered it isn't, but when those kills DO happen, it's not fun. If the hidden could respawn (as in overrun) then it's perfectly fine, but dying in an instant is a real turn off when you only have one life!

One shot kills with the shotgun, consistently, is a skill. I've never had a "lucky shot" that if I had approached more carefully, I wouldn't have be to avoid. In other words, most of the lucky shots with the shotgun are avoidable.

starstriker1
12th December 2006, 17:11
One shot kills with the shotgun, consistently, is a skill. I've never had a "lucky shot" that if I had approached more carefully, I wouldn't have be to avoid. In other words, most of the lucky shots with the shotgun are avoidable.

I'm not denying either of those. Better players make those shots more often, and the shotgun is easy to avoid if you know what you're doing (I can't remember the last time a shotgunner killed me).

I'm talking strictly about perception, and about being on the recieving end. It isn't fun. The perception I've recieved and that far more people recieve on a daily basis is that those kills are all luck, and that in the end, its a toss of the dice whether they die or not. Perception is the problem, and perception is key.

Also, lets not deny that luck IS a huge part of the equation for marine players hunting the hidden. Even the really good ones often rely on the hidden doing something dumb or chancing upon the hidden when he doesn't realize they're there. The difference is that a shotgunner only needs to get lucky once, the other guys need to get lucky four times or more.

skwiikki
12th December 2006, 17:53
I'm not denying either of those. Better players make those shots more often, and the shotgun is easy to avoid if you know what you're doing (I can't remember the last time a shotgunner killed me).

I'm talking strictly about perception, and about being on the recieving end. It isn't fun. The perception I've recieved and that far more people recieve on a daily basis is that those kills are all luck, and that in the end, its a toss of the dice whether they die or not. Perception is the problem, and perception is key.

Also, lets not deny that luck IS a huge part of the equation for marine players hunting the hidden. Even the really good ones often rely on the hidden doing something dumb or chancing upon the hidden when he doesn't realize they're there. The difference is that a shotgunner only needs to get lucky once, the other guys need to get lucky four times or more. I remember when i started. shot everywere with the shotgun and were really lucky. counted seconds 3...2...1.. then fast jumped and turned 180 degrees and shot. got a bunch of kills. dont really agree about toning the fn down. The weapons are just fine for me now

waRp^
12th December 2006, 18:14
i would like the shotgun to be more powerfull cause everytime i choose it i die so fast cause i cant hit with it :/

starstriker1
12th December 2006, 22:43
I remember when i started. shot everywere with the shotgun and were really lucky. counted seconds 3...2...1.. then fast jumped and turned 180 degrees and shot. got a bunch of kills. dont really agree about toning the fn down. The weapons are just fine for me now

The assault rifle is absurdly powerful compared to the p90, which has generally been accepted as the standard in weapon balance since the start of the mod. Aside from the arguably subjective experience of players who play against it, hidden-stats show pretty clearly just how much more effective the assault rifle is.

@Warp

Well, its hard to say for certain without actually trying it, but I think that the upped fire rate would probably be a huge step in that regard.

Of course, the problem with my shotgun suggestion is just that: I haven't had a chance to test it much. Sure, the lower damage FEELS good, but I couldn't modify the fire rate at all. Conversely, with the f2000, I managed to hack in a way for it to be semi auto with lower damage.

Cheesey
13th December 2006, 07:54
I'm just curious, is there a possibility this conversation might have a chance to be eventually included in the thoughts to change the weapons behaviour in B5?

(Cause I think it doesn't matter anymore...)

Euphoria
14th December 2006, 16:17
(Cause I think it doesn't matter anymore...)

Please explain what you mean by 'it'.

Cheesey
14th December 2006, 16:38
Please explain what you mean by 'it'.

I don't think that there is a chance to change the gun-behaviour in B5... just a thought, I may be wrong. No criticism, no flame.... just a thought

Demented
14th December 2006, 17:52
There's little stopping Ging from spontaneously setting the F2000 damage to 1 before release.... Except that I doubt he has the patience to wait for the code to compile just so he can spite whomever it may concern.

Euphoria
14th December 2006, 18:45
I don't think that there is a chance to change the gun-behaviour in B5... just a thought, I may be wrong. No criticism, no flame.... just a thought

Thanks for the response:) .

starstriker1
14th December 2006, 18:59
There's no reason weapon behaviour couldn't change between now and the release, since it probably isn't going to get released particularily soon. It comes down to whether Ging feels like messing with weapon balance.

Zabiela
14th December 2006, 19:50
Im crossing my fingers for semi-auto FN, nerf shotty goodness.

waRp^
14th December 2006, 20:35
im crossing my fingers for the shotgun to be replaced with a radameer

Paegus
14th December 2006, 20:55
wth is a radameer?

starstriker1
14th December 2006, 21:04
I think he means "Redeemer", which is a weapon from Unreal Tournament. A one shot, portable NUKE from Unreal Tournament.

waRp^
14th December 2006, 21:04
its an unreal tournament 2004 gun :D its like a nuckler gun or something

starstriker1
14th December 2006, 21:05
Dear god man, Nuckler!?

You're making ol' Dubya look good.

Demented
14th December 2006, 21:26
I got 200 meggertons o' hard brass nuckle missiles, and I ain't afraid ter use 'em!


The redeemer in UT was so much more class than UT2krap3/4. There was nothing like seeing that big white shockwave and praying, just praying, that you'd get out of the blast radius before it squashed you like a bug under a steel-toed boot. Of course, those prayers never got answered....

Kira Yamato
14th December 2006, 21:34
I always liked waiting for some one to open a door and detonating the redeemer inside the flag stand. Wiping out all those stupid campers so I could go get the flag. There was a bug UT at one point where you could pick up a second or third redeemer, but they fixed it eventually.

Paegus
14th December 2006, 21:55
oh i see... well as long as it's anally launched :thumbsup:

starstriker1
15th December 2006, 01:17
HOkay, back to the topic at hand. O_o

Demented
15th December 2006, 03:57
You mean the assumption that Ging's not going to do anything to the F2000 he hasn't already done?

Cheesey
15th December 2006, 06:34
HOkay, back to the topic at hand. O_o

You mean the assumption that Ging's not going to add the redeemer to Hidden:Source? :eek:
(I hope the redeemer will never be an option in H:S :p)

Euphoria
15th December 2006, 17:24
Think of the team kills:rolleyes: .

Kira Yamato
15th December 2006, 21:15
oh i see... well as long as it's anally launched :thumbsup:


Redeemers aren't anally launched. But with the video guidance you can definately shove one up some one's ass from a safe distance.

Mr. Bottomhat
17th December 2006, 00:19
The worst thing about the FN2000 is the horrible idle animation and its unsmooth loop.

starstriker1
17th December 2006, 01:06
Aaaaaand the animator comes to murder you in your sleep.

Isolation
17th December 2006, 01:26
I half expect Gus to delete that post :rolleyes:

Demented
17th December 2006, 05:57
You can't hide the truth forever!!
:D

edit°
17th December 2006, 09:14
Camelot Camelot Ramalot Spamelot

Uxen`[PF]
18th December 2006, 21:00
its an unreal tournament 2004 gun :D its like a nuckler gun or something

FYI that was the UT 99 party pice.. blew up like half the map with one rocket.. noone really used it it was just to mess about with

always remember rocket arena "redeemer" version.. where you shot the floor and flew about 4000 mile into the sky

Felf
18th December 2006, 23:58
Camelot Camelot Ramalot Spamelot

Hamelot Hamalot Bamalot Swamalot.

EDIT:: I love the way Cheesy just ignored edit there :)

Moving swiftly on, I hope in the next release the f2000 fires foam darts that move slowly and whistle through the air. And that it changes its name to the "Nerf 2000 Sniper Sight" or some other such name. Man, that'd make my life SO much easier as hidden.

EDIT: Arg, mod, double post, arg, I'm so SORRY :O (pls delete above)

Boxy
18th December 2006, 23:59
Something about the FN2000 has changed, but you will see the difference when you play with it...

Isolation
19th December 2006, 02:52
Huzzah for ambiguity!

Demented
19th December 2006, 03:06
It's a rocket launcher.

Zabiela
19th December 2006, 05:14
it has a bayonet 5 feet long, horizontal, to swipe at the hidden.

Paegus
19th December 2006, 09:52
Something about the FN2000 has changed, but you will see the difference when you play with it...

oh gods... please tell me that scope isn't a permanent fixture...

Euphoria
19th December 2006, 15:58
Its a flame thrower attachment.

waRp^
19th December 2006, 16:52
all stop these lame weapon thoughts...

it have becoma a rail-gun

Mayhem
19th December 2006, 17:01
This really has become a spamthread :P

I'd say the fn2k okay, cause of the amount of nonregs which happen all the time.


it have becoma a rail-gun

Nay. It will be a Winchester!